Mary's appearence at fatima

[Orr v'emet]

Mary is exalted for Catholics. It's almost no different than a Baptist going to their pastor whom they love and respect and asking them to pray for them, and also defending that pastor no matter what.

Yes, but few Baptists I know would craft a guilded statue of their pastor and parade it around town so folks can throw flowers and coins at it. And no Baptist I know would crawl for miles on their bloodied hands and knees to get to a church in which another statue in the image of their pastor rests.

In fact, nowhere else in the world do we find such "veneration" of a person. Nowhere in the world (That I am aware of) has such religious ferver over this woman caused people to craft statues and adorn it with treasures of the earth so valuable that they could practically purchase an entire continent with them (http://www.monmouth.com/~samus/marytalk/graphics/maryt32.gif)

[ServingHim]

Serving Him,

My question was not about worshipping images. I was asking about the practice of bowing down in front of them.

and I answered you saying ...

And as you have noted regarding this scripture in Deuteronomy 5:9 where God said concerning statues, "You shall not bow down to them.", you have said we must be worshipping 'graven images' since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints. I believe that you, and many others, are confusing the legitimate 'usefulness as a tool' of a sacred image (such as the crucifix, statue of a saint, et al) with the sin of idolatry. The fact is, Deuteronomy 5:9 doesn't help this stance at all.

Remember that although bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. For example, in Japan it is the custom for people to show respect and politeness by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of shaking hands in the West). Obviously there is no "worship" going on here. The Catholic who kneels in front of a statue when praying IS NOT worshipping or even praying TO the statue anymore than when YOU kneel in prayer with a Bible in your hands, you I KNOW are not worshipping your Bible NOR are you praying TO the Bible.

When people had to look to the bronze serpent to be healed in the OT, they were not worshipping it, as shown by the fact that, years later when they did worship it, and even gave it a name ("Nehushtan") as a snake-god, the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

I was wondering how one is 'supposed' to comply with this command ...

O come, let us worship and bow down, let us kneel before the LORD, our Maker! Psalms 95:6

... when God is NOT VISIBLE to us. Perhaps you're being a little rashly judgmental towards catholics who desire to comply with this and show reverence to God IN CHURCH when they kneel before the altar or the crucifix. HOW do YOU do what the psalmist is telling us to do?

[ServingHim]

Mary is exalted for Catholics. It's almost no different than a Baptist going to their pastor whom they love and respect and asking them to pray for them, and also defending that pastor no matter what.

I'm not sure how you see this connection but um...my pastor is alive. Mary is dead. What good is she going to do me?

but Mary is WITH JESUS, and your Pastor is not (John 14:1-31), yet!

[stevehut]

Perhaps you're being a little rashly judgmental towards catholics who desire to comply with this and show reverence to God IN CHURCH

Huh?

Again, I didn't ask about worship. And I didn't judge anything or anybody. I'm trying to understand.

[Ovedya]

Perhaps our fellow Catholic apologists would care to answer this: Why is it that the predominant number of statues or images of Jesus depict Him as a baby? It was not the infant Jesus that saved us from our sins. Therefore, why are there so many depictions of the infant Jesus?

[Ovedya]

That's what I was talking about with respect to the blurring of the distiction between reverence and worship.

[ServingHim]

Perhaps you're being a little rashly judgmental towards catholics who desire to comply with this and show reverence to God IN CHURCH

Huh?

Again, I didn't ask about worship. And I didn't judge anything or anybody. I'm trying to understand.

I didn't mean you 'personally'...sorry...

[ServingHim]

Perhaps our fellow Catholic apologists would care to answer this: Why is it that the predominant number of statues or images of Jesus depict Him as a baby? It was not the infant Jesus that saved us from our sins. Therefore, why are there so many depictions of the infant Jesus?

I'm not an 'apologist', but I do know that the 'infant Jesus' was STILL God in the flesh...God came to us FIRST in the form of 'an infant'. I also see in all Catholic churches the image of Christ on the Cross (the Crucifix)...I'd have to say that THAT is the 'predominant' image of our Lord. Our Lord was BORN to die on the cross and 'save us' from our sins...He couldn't get to the cross without first becoming an infant, IMHO.

[ServingHim]

That's what I was talking about with respect to the blurring of the distiction between reverence and worship.

[Ovedya]

Perhaps our fellow Catholic apologists would care to answer this: Why is it that the predominant number of statues or images of Jesus depict Him as a baby?  It was not the infant Jesus that saved us from our sins.  Therefore, why are there so many depictions of the infant Jesus?

I'm not an 'apologist', but I do know that the 'infant Jesus' was STILL God in the flesh...God came to us FIRST in the form of 'an infant'. I also see in all Catholic churches the image of Christ on the Cross (the Crucifix)...I'd have to say that THAT is the 'predominant' image of our Lord. Our Lord was BORN to die on the cross and 'save us' from our sins...He couldn't get to the cross without first becoming an infant, IMHO.

First let me apologize. I did not intend to use the term pologist in a negative sense at all. I respect our Catholic friends. My intention here is not to be combative, but merely to challenge these kinds of doctrinal teachings.

My opinion is that actions speak louder than words in a lot of situations. Therefore, when I see more images of baby Jesus than I do of the man Jesus, my propensity is to question why.

I am an iconoclast by nature. So I don't agree with any kind of religious imagery - whether Catholic or otherwise. It may be fine for other believers, but it just doesn't sit right with me. Not condemning others - it's just no me. God coming in the flesh is only half the equation to me - and that not even the most important in my opinion. God coming in the flesh is truly a wonderful mystery; I agree with the Bible. But God going to the cross to redeem me is a much greater mystery and holds much greater significance in my opinion. In that one act God has accomplished so much, and has made so much more available to me than His incarnation. Likewise with the virgin birth. Although the virgin birth is truly a miracle, it is not something that I focus on.