Mary's appearence at fatima

[ServingHim]

The question really is, which is the final authority? Sacred tradition or scripture?

Paul tells the Corinthians, "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2), and he commands the Thessalonians, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15). He even goes so far as to order, "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" (2 Thess. 3:6).

How does a 'sola scriptura' christian obey this COMMAND; these 'traditions' that Paul exhorts the brethren to obey are not written in the Bible? Do you just ignore this? Why?

And, to make sure that the apostle's teachings/tradition would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). Nowhere was Paul telling Timothy to 'write it down' and put it in the Bible. In this passage Paul refers to the first four generations of apostolic succession

[ServingHim]

The question really is, which is the final authority? Sacred tradition or scripture? It's not so much a defense of sola scriptura as it a battle between tradition and scripture, especially when the two come into conflict.

super jew, i do believe that is the most profound statement made in this entire thread!

so conveniently, everyone has ignored all the verses that I posted previously that contradict anyone using 'the Bible' as the FINAL RULE and AUTHORITY of their faith...why? Is it more comfortable to just ignore it...

"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." Luke 10:16 (RSV)

Christ is very clear that He sent His APOSTLES to TEACH ... NOT to write down a single thing (though the Church has most definitely done this, and TOLD us 'sheep' WHICH writings ARE completely divinely inspired). And then Jesus warns that those who reject the apostles teachings (and those like in the previous post regarding Paul exhorting Timothy, his successor and then his sucessor) that those who refuse to listen ALSO REJECT Christ AND His Father! How do you reconcile with these verses? Humbly submitted, intrigued why one can ignore this?

[apothanein kerdos]

ServingHim ~

You're skirting the issue that I brought forth. Which is superior, sacred tradition or scripture? Both come into conflict when we look to the issue of grace. Sacred tradition teaches us we must work to maintain grace whereas the Bible teaches us grace is something given to us freely by God. Thus, which is superior? You use the Bible to validate sacred tradition, thus making the Bible superior

However, let me go ahead and deal with the verses you put forth.

Looking to 1 Corinthians 11:2 we can see that attempting to draw sacred tradition out of this scripture is simply grasping at straws. We know that Paul had already had a missionary journey to the Corinthian church and had instituted traditions with them. What are these traditions? One only look up above to verse one to see they are to maintain a Christ-like attitude. The tradition spoken of is found in verse three and on. When looking at the context, we can see Paul is merely commending them for holding fast to what he had taught them.

Moving onto 2 Thessalonians 2:15 we see that Paul commends them for holding onto the teachings handed down by word of mouth or that are hand written. He is simply commending them for listening to the sermons preached to them and the letters sent to them. We take the word "tradition" too far in this verse when all it is refering to is "teachings handed down" to them through preaching.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 doesn't fair much better. The "tradition" spoken of here can be found in 1 Thessalonians 5:11, Romans 14:19, and 1 Corinthians 10:23. In other words, the tradition is validated by the scripture.

How does a 'sola scriptura' christian obey this COMMAND; these 'traditions' that Paul exhorts the brethren to obey are not written in the Bible? Do you just ignore this? Why?

Quite easily actually. We take traditions and compare them to scripture. If they match up we follow them. If not, we do not follow them. The Catholic beliefs of Papal infallibility when making church declarations, the exaulted spot of Mary, intercession of the saints in heaven, etc are all traditions that cannot be backed by scripture and even contradict scripture. Thus either sacred tradition or scripture must be trusted. Which is it?

2 Timothy 2:2 is an arguement for discipleship, not tradition. Paul is commanding Timothy to pass down the words given to him to competent men. We only have to look within the Bible to find these words. The words of salvation. The thing is, a Catholic apologist would lead us to believe that Paul did not write down these traditions. Thus we are to believe that the man who wrote 2/3's of the New Testament happened to leave out traditions that violate scripture. In essence, the tradition we see Paul commanding Timothy to keep is simply the tradition of spreading the Gospel.

Christ is very clear that He sent His APOSTLES to TEACH ... NOT to write down a single thing

This is taking scripture prima facia. It's bad interpretation and bad practice when attempting to interpret a scripture. Christ told His apostles to teach. No where are they commanded not to write anything down. I think you are hard pressed to find a centilia of scripture that even hints that Christ told them not to write anything down. By stating this, you have also elevated sacred tradition above the Bible.

Cheers.

[ServingHim]

ServingHim ~

You're skirting the issue that I brought forth. Which is superior, sacred tradition or scripture?

. . .

Thus, which is superior? You use the Bible to validate sacred tradition, thus making the Bible superior

I thought I did answer that ... I said previously...

The true "rule of faith"

[Guest LadyC]

i guess the example the bereans set was put into scripture just for special effects.

ok fellow bereans, let's discard that biblical example and never again doublecheck to make sure what the church is teaching lines up with scripture. that passage in the bible was an accident.

[ServingHim]

i guess the example the bereans set was put into scripture just for special effects.

ladyC, I never said anything about not checking with scripture...also, I can't find the example in scripture regarding the bereans...could you note the scripture for me. I can't remember where it is and can't seem to put my hands on it right now. Thanks.

[Guest LadyC]

SH, i'm very short on time these days, but if you'll scroll back through this thread, i'm pretty sure i posted the passage, or at least its location.

[stevehut]

I can't find the example in scripture regarding the bereans...

Acts 17:10-12

As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

[ServingHim]

I can't find the example in scripture regarding the bereans...

Acts 17:10-12

As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

thank you Steve.

Weren't the scriptures they examined the OT only? I don't see an example of any NT believers examining the NT scriptures (the books that we know as the Bible). Humbly asked...

[ServingHim]

"We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." 1 John 4:6

also, they checked the OT scriptures, but 1 John speaks of not checking the scriptures, but listening to the apostles and what they are teaching IS truth ... afterall, someone could listen to them, search the scriptures and perhaps in their own interpretation find 'error' in what the apostles were saying. I'm sure there were many who DID listen to the apostles, searched the scriptures and still denied the teachings that the apostles were teaching...

Thanks again for finding that scripture so I didn't have to go back through all these posts to find what ladyc posted...