Marriage and divorce

[BigBert]

Right. And I'd say that one of the biggest reasons for that high rate is the very hardness of heart Jesus continually preached against. As He said, the whole commandments (all that God requires) can be summed up in loving God and fellow human beings fully.

In my case, my wife's hardness of heart is why the outcome of divorce looks to be inevitable. I was willing to do whatever it took, as I repeatedly told her (even telling her I still love and care about her and am willing to reconcile just a couple weeks ago after a year's separation). However, as some close and wise Christian brothers sadly acknowledge, "God's not going to take away her free will." I agree. Without free will, there cannot really be love, the way I see it. It's a shame, but in the end, I realize she was never really "mine" for a number of reasons. I'm also not sure she's even saved. Whatever the case, she certainly has been unrepentant through this.

Anyway, I think my brief ramble ties in, because God's for loving hearts and against hardened ones, whatever each marriage's unique situation.

I do not, though, believe He expects a person to wait for eternity for the other party to "come to his/her senses." Naturally, I believe you should do all you can, open to being as led by the Holy Spirit as much as possible.

Edited August 18, 2009 by BigBert

[Smalcald]

Yeah all we can do is all we can do; all we have control of is ourselves, we cannot control other people. You have done everything you can, at this point it is in God's hands and hers. If someone leaves they leave. I would worry about her soul and I know you are praying for her. Scripture is pretty clear that we should not simply walk away from a marriage because we want to and how do you repent of something you are not sorry for?

But we are called to peace.

[BigBert]

Yeah all we can do is all we can do; all we have control of is ourselves, we cannot control other people. You have done everything you can, at this point it is in God's hands and hers. If someone leaves they leave. I would worry about her soul and I know you are praying for her. Scripture is pretty clear that we should not simply walk away from a marriage because we want to and how do you repent of something you are not sorry for?

But we are called to peace.

Yes, we are called to peace indeed. That's why after a certain period of time and effort, I "let her go," not trying to any more talk her into why she should consider counseling, etc. She had, in her words, reached a point of no longer caring. While I understand it on the one level, the fact is I never was guilty of abuse or adultery. However, again, there was room on both ends for disillusion. The bottom line, when all was said and done: "Were you willing to even try?"

[BigBert]

One more thing I'd like to add regarding Jesus' comments on grounds for divorce. As some of you've noted already, the culture was vastly different, and I think we've got to consider the texts within that time frame and atmosphere.

Considering the way women were dealt with and the domineering nature--dictatorial, perhaps--of the men, it likely wasn't even an issue that a woman would abandon without just cause or abuse the man. She had everything to lose in such a case--again, unless she needed to invoke the grounds for divorce found in Exodus, in the event the man failed to provide food, clothing and "love."

So, when Jesus spoke directly to the hard hearted, godless men, it likely wasn't even a consideration for Him to address other reasons than adultery for why a man would be allowed to divorce her. Hence His providing adultery as the "only" justification for divorce. He was, as we remember, solely responding to the men, who were testing Him.

Obviously things are enormously different in our culture today, and women unfortunately abandon or abuse their husbands as a fact of society. While we should be careful assuming anything definite regarding Jesus, if we follow the spirit of the law, as He time and time again emphasizes, I would suggest that He'd allow a husband (or wife) the option of divorce in the event the spouse is unrepentant in areas of abuse or neglect.

It seems that while the Bible is THE Word of God, there are many areas or situations that are not covered directly, but rather can be dealt with "in spirit." I consider some instances of divorce one of those areas, as may be the case in many areas of life. But, if we do our best under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand His basic thinking and heart in matters, we can apply that to anything and feel reasonably assured we're on the right path (I say "reasonably" because even with the power of the Spirit, we're humans subject to error--which, too, is why we should seriously pray, read, receive counsel, and contemplate any big decisions).

Edited August 18, 2009 by BigBert

[renren]

Renren,

While I applaud you big-time in feeling deeply satisfied with your life as a single, I still do wonder if you wouldn't have a different take on this subject if you had experienced the agony of a divorce, especially on the receiving end. (I will clarify that no party is likely absolved of all guilt, because it takes two--both in the good and the bad. However, sometimes one party is, by and large, much more "guilty")

So if i went through a bad divorce then i could not possibly be happy as a single? I would have to remarry?

Lets make it clear.....I never said all divorce is wrong.

What I did say is that people need to stop looking for men and women to complete them. And BE complete in Christ.

And i dont need to have aids to counsel a person with aids.

I dont need to have cancer to counsel a person with cancer

I dont need to have been raped to counsel someone who was raped.

And the list goes on.

[BigBert]

Renren,

While I applaud you big-time in feeling deeply satisfied with your life as a single, I still do wonder if you wouldn't have a different take on this subject if you had experienced the agony of a divorce, especially on the receiving end. (I will clarify that no party is likely absolved of all guilt, because it takes two--both in the good and the bad. However, sometimes one party is, by and large, much more "guilty")

So if i went through a bad divorce then i could not possibly be happy as a single? I would have to remarry?

Lets make it clear.....I never said all divorce is wrong.

What I did say is that people need to stop looking for men and women to complete them. And BE complete in Christ.

And i dont need to have aids to counsel a person with aids.

I dont need to have cancer to counsel a person with cancer

I dont need to have been raped to counsel someone who was raped.

And the list goes on.

Hmmm....I could be wrong, but am detecting a bit of defensiveness, meaning my wording may not have been as ideal as I'd have liked. Sorry, if that's the case.

I never said with any solid conviction that you would have needed to go through a harsh divorce to have a legitimate perspective. Instead, what I stated was I simply wondered if that's the case, because, with very few exceptions, those most critical (I don't mean outright condemning necessarily) of divorce have not gone through it, that's all. Therefore the question in my mind.

Regarding your following assertions about not 'needing' to have experienced the ills you listed, that's true. Yet, it's also often true that those who have gone through such are in a far stronger position to provide adequate counsel and be able to see the other side of the coin. For these very people have, in their experience, had the viewpoint of both sides. Again, not saying it's mandatory, but experience tells me that those who endure such have their eyes opened in such a way as to have a more valuable perspective.

There is, of course, no such "rule" that works in all cases.

As to being completed in Christ, there is no doubt that having Jesus in your life in a major way fills a lot of otherwise empty territory. Obviously, we can agree on that, period. I would add, however, that for many, God gave man an inherent yearning for companionship of the opposite sex. Know you recall Genesis, where despite man being in a perfect, sinless environment with close and undeterred fellowship with God Himself, the Lord deemed it "Not good for the man to be alone." As Josh McDowell, great Christian apologist stated, "that's amazing," in light of all that the first man had set up in his favor.

Again, not trying to denigrate your position, just simply stating others may have perspectives that are their own, and just as valid. You may well feel the same way.

[Smalcald]

We are called to both.

What did St. Paul say?

1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.

7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am.

What does he say to the married?

0To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

Then we have this advice and counsel;

32I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs

[BigBert]

sure, I certainly agree with that. Paul makes it very clear we're all called to different paths.

It should be noted, though, in keeping consistent with the context of the times, that Paul was especially inclined to discourage marriage, generally, due to the "impending crisis." Very conceivable that he would not have set guidelines that virtually discouraged marriage in this particular time period.

1 Corinthians 7:26 "Because of the impending crisis I think it best for you to remain as you are."

Edited August 18, 2009 by BigBert

[Smalcald]

Yes I agree; marriage in scripture is shown as a Holy bond, so important that Christ's very relationship with His Church is compared to a marriage.

I just think that sometimes we do indeed have this inclination to push for people to be in romantic relationships, when there is no reason for us to do so. It is very sad when we see people go from one person to the next to the next searching for happiness that they never really find in that way.

I would like to see Christians working harder to make divorce much harder to legally obtain we need to get rid of no fault divorce, the legal assumption must be a lifelong bond, particularly if there are children involved and if you want to break that bond you must show specific things, if not you cannot get divorced and remarry. Of course we must stop ordaining divorced ministers, it is no different from ordaining gay's it sets a horrible example.

But this will be seen as insane by the Evangelical Churches I have no illusions, we are now in the position in society of being the proponents of divorce not the supporters of marriage.

[BigBert]

I don't say this rhetorically when I say I appreciate the emphasis you put on doing one's best to make marriages last.

I do completely disagree with your perspective on divorce in the blanket context you place it.

It might be remembered here that God Himself divorced Israel--actually gave it a certificate of divorce.

God may hate divorce, but He likely hates the sinning mind set that in a number of cases that leads to it more than the act itself. Because there are a number of cases where the final act of divorce itself is actually justified.

Number of godly people have accurately noted "Divorce itself is not always a sin. But it's, without fail, the result of sin (whichever side it's predominantly coming from, or often in the case of both parties to varying degrees)."