From the Foundation of the World

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings All,

I am leading into something, so be prepared for some radical thought. I would like your interpretation of what "from the foundation of the world" means in the following verses.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

In this second verse pay close attendence to the correct antecedent of "from the foundation of the world".

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest okiejack]

"From the foundation of the world" would refer to GOD's planning everything before creating it. GOD's plan would be the "foundation" that the "world" was created on.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings okiejack,

"From the foundation of the world" would refer to GOD's planning everything before creating it. GOD's plan would be the "foundation" that the "world" was created on.

I agree with you regarding this "phrase". I see that Jesus was in the world reconciling it to God even from the "foundation of the world":

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I see the "culmination" of these efforts when the Jews are saved:

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

I also see the "heart of Jesus" when the world was first created and I believe His heart is depicted in the "breastplate" that was worn by the "High Priest" of the Levitical Priesthood. On it was the representation of the 12 tribes of Israel. This, I believe, represents those who were on Jesus' heart and whom He began interceding for since time began. With this thought in mind these verses become more clear:

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:10-14 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth.

Colossians 1:14-20 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

So as you say "from the foundation of the world" refers to the time of the beginning of creation which God through "foreknowledge" wrote down in His Books of rememberence.

Now for the 2nd portion of what I am leading into. Thanks to you okiejack. Please look and analyze the following verses and make whatever comments you think are appropriate:

Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Looking forward to any and all's comments.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings,

I was hoping I would excite some interest in this topic, but perhaps it might prove too controversial. In any case, I have been examining the "Lamb's Book of Life", trying to determine what it is and what it is used for. Also when it came into existence. As I have said, I believe this is the "heart" of Jesus and it is ultimately used for determining who will and who will NOT be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

I have emphasized "from the foundation of the world" in all the scriptures I cited and I believe that upon the 7th day, God (the Father) rested from ALL of His works including writing down the history of mankind in His "Books". From that time on, I believe it has been Jesus who has been reconciling the world unto God which will continue until death is overcome completely with "life", and the Son relinquishes everything back to the Father.

So in examining the Lamb's Book of life, I believe we can determine at least a few things about it.

1. All the saints names were written in it "from the foundation of the world". (Rev 3:5; 21:27) Nowhere in scripture does it say that any names are added to the Lamb's Book of Life.

2. There are those "whose names were NOT written" in the Lamb's Book of life. (Rev 13:8; 17:8; 20:15)

3. There are those whose names will be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of life:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Unless someone can show me differently, God threw away His pencil on the 7th day and only kept the eraser.

Theologically this may produce a conundrum for some. But for others it offers hope and understanding of some of the lesser understood scriptures.

You see, this refutes the idea of Once Saved Always Saved, or OSAS for short because it reveals that there are those who WERE written in the Lamb's Book of Life, but were removed. However, for those who wonder about babies, children before the age of accountability, and the infirm, I believe it shows that it is reasonable to believe that they are saved regardless of their "non-confession of Jesus Christ". Also I believe it shows that God wishes that NONE should perish and that all should come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ/salvation, in that those whom God calls, He pursues until either they accept Christ or reject Him. I believe Ananias and Sapphira are examples of "rejecting Christ". Actually they "blasphemed the work of the Holy Spirit", and in doing so rejected Christ.

Now if anyone can refute the point of my message here, please step forward, I really do want to hear from you.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[OneAccord]

This is muddy ground and I get hopelessly confused by these kinds of discussions but nevertheless intrigued.  Seems these discussions never truly find resolve and have been debated for centuries.

Are you saying that each person IS written in the Book from the foundation of the world and then through freewill opt out of the plan?  Thus you can't get written in, because you are already there, but you can get blotted out.

If this is what you are trying to postulate, then I would ask, why then are some called CHOSEN, or ELECTED by God, in other words God is choosing whom He calls?

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings OneAccord,

Are you saying that each person IS written in the Book from the foundation of the world and then through freewill opt out of the plan?  Thus you can't get written in, because you are already there, but you can get blotted out.

No, there are those that by God's foreknowledge, He wrote in the Lamb's Book of Life, AND there are those He DID NOT write in the Book.

If this is what you are trying to postulate, then I would ask, why then are some called CHOSEN, or ELECTED by God, in other words God is choosing whom He calls?

Every saint will have his/her name written in the Lamb's Book of Life come judgement day. These are the chosen and elect of God. We are told that "for your own sin shall you die", and then given the opportunity to either accept or reject our Lord Jesus. If we reject Him and we die, we are blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life.

Thank you for your response.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[OneAccord]

What about those that were never written in the Lamb's Book of Life?

It seems that if God already knows who the chosen/elect are through divine foreknowledge, than that somehow cheapens what Christ did on the cross, if a select 'elite' are who he died for.  What about the rest of the poor lost sinners?

He said, I did not come to save the righteous, but the lost.

Are certain 'lost' pre-written in the book and the rest of the lost are not?

I am just debating here, so please don't take offense, I never know if I'm coming off sounding argumentative on a message board, so please know that's not the spirit I am discussing in.

As for the "foundation of the world",  I think it is vital for a Christian or any student of the Bible to  have an understanding of TIME and ETERNITY, they are tow different realities.  God operates out of eternity, and man is constrained by time and the flesh.   I bleieve the foundation of the world to be a place in eternity.

[CWJ]

OK....I'll step up to the plate here.

Rev 13:8...in this verse it is saying the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world; not that the peoples names weren't written at that time, just that Jesus' sacrifice was planned. Reading the context should make that clear.

So...the idea that some names were neverwritten in (and never will be) cannot be obtained from this context.  The context points out that all(unsaved) shall worship the beast.  To say that this established a timeline for the writting of names is inference.

Rev 22:19....This moreover states a condition of all having a possible "part" or "space" for your name to be written.

NOTICE:   IT DOES NOT SAY "WRITTEN" in already!!

This "saved space" idea is consistant with 2Peter 3:9..."that all should come to repentance".  Therefore..., we "all' have a "part" reserved based on our decision in this life.  God so loves us all that He leaves us a chance.

NOW...as a far as OSAS...well, let's see the clear picture using scriptures.

John 3:3...one must be re-born to see the Kingdom of heaven

John3:16..states how we must be re-born, by believing

Mark 6:12...this belief must be the right kind, with repentance

The proper believer is an overcomer.

1John5:4..."For whatsoever is BORN of God OVERCOMETH the world; and this is the victory that OVERCOMETH the world, even our faith....(5)...Who is he that OVERCOMETH the world, but he that believeth that JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD?"

So we have a firm scriptural definition of an OVERCOMER.

NOW...for the proof from scripture that ONCE RE-BORN, ALWAYS RE-BORN (SAVED)

Rev3:5.."He that OVERCOMETH, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; AND I WILL NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

NOW THAT'S ETERNAL SECURITY!  Thanks Abba!

Praise the Lord Jesus!

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings One Accord,

What about those that were never written in the Lamb's Book of Life?

It seems that if God already knows who the chosen/elect are through divine foreknowledge, than that somehow cheapens what Christ did on the cross, if a select 'elite' are who he died for.  What about the rest of the poor lost sinners?

I am NOT saying that God chose/elected through divine foreknowledge, but He knew those who would be chosen/elect before any of it came to pass. To not assent to His "foreknowledge" is also to ignore His "Omniscience". The cross is not cheapened by God's "foreknowledge", just as a precious gift to you would not be cheapened by you knowing about it before you received it. Say that for your 16th birthday you knew you would receive a car. Would it cheapen the gift then since you KNEW about it?

He said, I did not come to save the righteous, but the lost.

He also said: All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one. This describes everyone from Adam onward, yet we see that NO entries are made IN the Lamb's Book of Life "from the foundations of the World". If you can find some verses that say otherwise, I would appreciate seeing them.

Are certain 'lost' pre-written in the book and the rest of the lost are not?

Since we see that there ARE those whose names were NOT written in the Lamb's Book of Life "from the foundation of the World", I must conclude that God knew those who would not/could not(?) come to Christ. Perhaps the Nephilim? How about some of the more infamous people in the world's history, like perhaps Hitler, Charles Manson or Sadaam Hussein.

I am just debating here, so please don't take offense, I never know if I'm coming off sounding argumentative on a message board, so please know that's not the spirit I am discussing in.

You do not have to worry. I have only recently saw this and it appears to hold true with the scriptures, but if anyone can solidly refute it and persuade me otherwise with appropriate scriptural reasoning, then I will go back to the drawing board. I appreciate your input.

As for the "foundation of the world",  I think it is vital for a Christian or any student of the Bible to  have an understanding of TIME and ETERNITY, they are tow different realities.  God operates out of eternity, and man is constrained by time and the flesh.   I bleieve the foundation of the world to be a place in eternity.

I heartily agree with you here, but I believe God finished writing in it when He entered His rest on the 7th day.

God Bless you My Friend in Christ,

Dad Ernie

[Adstar]

Hello Dad Ernie

I don't know if this will add to this discussion or not but I have put down some thoughts on this subject some months ago for what its worth?

Let us think about Prophesy. If the future can be accurately foretold (which Christians must believe if they agree with what