Desire to discuss spiritual gifts with someone...

[carlos123]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post on thsi forum. Although I am a born again Christian I have become very disallusioned overall with Christianity and find myself questioning whether Christianity is real at all.

One area over which I have become disallusioned is over whether it is indeed possible to read the Bible, read what it plainly says, and come to agreement. It seems that few Christians read it for what it says and agree over what it says. There are Christiians who believe in the spiritual gifts for today and some that don't. There are some who believe you can't loose your salvation and some who say you can. There are those who believe that there is a second baptism of the Spirt and some that believe that we are all baptized with the Spirit fully at the new birth. On and on it goes.

I am currently discussing things at length with my brother and even with him (there is some question of whether he is a Christian or not) the way Christians disagree with each other is a MAJOR stumbling block to having him see that one can read the Bible and come to a place of knowing what it says clearly such that one is left with the choice to believe or not believe. Not with struggling to understand what it says. His basic premise is that what is true in his understanding of what the Bible says is true for him but that this truth may be entirely different for someone else. Relativism in other words.

I do not agree with him yet the Christian world is a living example of relativism in that everyone seems to be believing all kinds of different things based on a reading of the same book! It is difficult for my brother to believe that it need not be so when it is so among so many otherwise sincere Christians.

I still believe that it is possible to not go beyond what is written to arrive at unity of thinking. The problem is that we so often go off into opinion leaving what is written behind.

I want to find someone to discuss spiritual gifts with. For the purpose of continuing to learn about this unexplainable division that exists among Christians. I understand the thinking process that results in Christians having differences of thinking but I want to learn, through yet another discussion, to work into agreement with another Christian who disagrees with what I believe. It's supposed to be possible and indeed the norm among Christians to agree.

I believe the spiritual gifts are around today. Is there anyone who believes that they are not who might be interested in discussing this with me? Such that we might learn together how to come to agreement? And how to achieve that despite our initial difference of opiinion?

I am not interested in winning a convert to the belief that spiritual gifts are around today. I am interested in learning how to come to agreement. Whether that involves me changing my mind or someone else changing theirs does not matter to me. I want to see if the principals of being in agreement laid out in the Bible really work by proving them true in a real discussion with someone who disagrees strongly with me.

Please send me a private message and we can go from there . I don't want to discuss the issue of spiritual gifts in public. In my experience such discussions started and carried out in public tend to disintegrate into a free for all that serves no purpose other than to solidify the disagreement.

If this is not appropriate for this forum please accept my apology and ignore this post.

Thanks.

Carlos

[Jedi4Yahweh]

I believe the spiritual gifts are around today. Is there anyone who believes that they are not who might be interested in discussing this with me? Such that we might learn together how to come to agreement? And how to achieve that despite our initial difference of opiinion?

Ok I am open for discussion. I also believe that the Gifts of the Spirit are for today. You will find through out the book of acts many years after the day of Penticost that people were still operating in the gifts. And the Gifts of the Spirit were not just limited to the Apostles but to all believers jew and gentiles. You will find that nowhere in the bible where the gift ever ceased. Actually Paul said we are not to forbid the gifts of the Spirit but we should seek and desire them. Jesus siad the these signs will follow believers not just certain believers.

I also believe that in the baptism in the Spirit. I do believe all true Christians have the Spirit of Christ but not all Christians have been baptised in the Spirit. Big Differance. Not all Christians have been filled with the Spirit or empowered by the Spirit to become witnesses.

Well let me know what exactly you would like to discuss first.

[carlos123]

Thanks Jedi4Yahweh but I was hoping to find someone to discuss things with who believed strongly that the gifts are NOT around for today .

I am still discussing whether to enter into a public discussion over this with several others in private messaging. Perhaps that is best but it would make for a rather messy discussion I think. As it is I guess anyone can start discussing this if they wish on this thread. As for me participating (as opposed to discussing this in private with another) I still don't know yet. My time is limited and I don't want to get embroiled in arguments and disputes and what have you in an all out public discussion which might end up being more like a debate.

I want to see if Biblical principals for coming to agreement actually work between two Christians of sincere heart who are willing to yield to what the Bible clearly says. If indeed it does say things clearly. Not get into butting heads with others in arguing for this or that point of Scripture (don't mean to imply that you are that Jedi4Yahweh - just expressing a concern about public discussion).

Carlos

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Thanks Jedi4Yahweh but I was hoping to find someone to discuss things with who believed strongly that the gifts are NOT around for today . 

I am still discussing whether to enter into a public discussion over this with several others in private messaging.  Perhaps that is best but it would make for a rather messy discussion I think.  As it is I guess anyone can start discussing this if they wish on this thread.  As for me participating (as opposed to discussing this in private with another) I still don't know yet.  My time is limited and I don't want to get embroiled in arguments and disputes and what have you in an all out public discussion which might end up being more like a debate. 

I want to see if Biblical principals for coming to agreement actually work between two Christians of sincere heart who are willing to yield to what the Bible clearly says.  If indeed it does say things clearly.  Not get into butting heads with others in arguing for this or that point of Scripture (don't mean to imply that you are that Jedi4Yahweh - just expressing a concern about public discussion). 

Carlos

I still don't know yet.  My time is limited and I don't want to get embroiled in arguments and disputes and what have you in an all out public discussion which might end up being more like a debate. 

I want to see if Biblical principals for coming to agreement actually work between two Christians of sincere heart who are willing to yield to what the Bible clearly says.  If indeed it does say things clearly.  Not get into butting heads with others in arguing for this or that point of Scripture (don't mean to imply that you are that Jedi4Yahweh - just expressing a concern about public discussion). 

Carlos

Oops sorry...

Yeah you can expect a heated debate about Spiritual Gifts being for today. There are many "anti-spiritual gift" people in any christian forum. I think you will have to live in complete state of denial and disbelieve to think that God did not intended for believers to have Spiritual Gifts today.

By Spiritual Gifts I mean the ones Paul listed in 1 Cor. 12

Gifts of Knowlege and Wisdom

Gifts of Healing

Gift of Miracles

Gift of Tongues and Interpretaion

Prophecy

Gift of Faith

Gift of Discerment

And these gifts are not for personal edification but for building up the Church.

God has gifted beleivers with these gifts.

To say that we do not need these gifts today is to say that the Church does not need edification.

[stevehut]

There are Christiians who believe in the spiritual gifts for today and some that don't.

I think I can answer some of your questions here. But first...

Are you asking about the gift of tongues? It is not the only gift...

[carlos123]

Hi Steve (?),

I've decided to try and discuss this in public for now to see how it goes .

But before we get into it I think it's important to agree on some guidelines to our discussion. I propose that we stick only to what is written. Paul said as much when he said....

1 Corinthians 4 (NASB)

Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.

I think we need to stick to what is written. Not siding with various opinions regarding dispensations, logical arguments, or otherwise unless such is clearly supported by specific verses. It has been my experience that most all disagreements between Christians boil down to disagreements over ideas and opinions that are extra biblical and not clearly indicated by any verses. The problem in the Christian world diagreeing so much does not seem to be that the Bible is so confusing but rather that Christians have encamped around lofty arguments and other speculations about the meaning of various verses. Arguments that really are used by Satan to divide and conquer rather than promote God's purposes in His people.

For example if I believe that the dispensation of gifts is over (for whatever reason) I will view the verses where gifts are mentioned as being for another time. New Testament times. Even though the verses might not say so at all.

If we are to have any hope of coming to agreement in line with God's desires we must be willing to stick to what is written just as Paul said.

I think we also need to take what is said in the Bible at face value unless there is clear reason to do otherwise. In other words I do not believe it takes a theologian or other learned individual to know what God has said and what He meant by what He said in the Bible. While some knowledge of underlying Greek is beneficial it is not always neccessary to resort to such or otherwise delve into complicated theological arguments to arrive at God's meaning. After all, on the whole, Jesus spoke more to those of simple faith than to the learned scholars of his day whose hearts he tended to condemn.

Lastly we should avoid insinuations or otherwise that cast one another's hearts in a negative light. Such as accusing each other of unbelief or otherwise describing the belief of those who disagree with us in inflamatory language which serves no purpose other than to inflame. Such that a discussion centered around trying to discover what God says and wants us to believe ends up degrading into a free for all where we end up slinging mud at each other.

Agreed? Any other overall guidelines to help us avoid getting into needless arguments and mud-slinging?

Carlos

[stevehut]

Of course.

[carlos123]

That's great Steve.

So please tell me. What do you believe about the spiritual gifts being around for today or not?

I mean for example the gift of tongues, prophecy, healing, and such in the sense spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12 to 14. These are not the only gifts spoken of but these are the ones that come to mind. There are also words of wisdom, words of knowledge, and others.

I think some call these the sign gifts as opposed to more traditional type of gifts like administration and pastor for example.

I am hoping that you believe they (the sign gifts) are not around . So that we can have a meaningful discussion from two different view points to see if God might not be able to bring us to agreement. Giving me at least, renewed hope for the Church being able to come to agreement instead of being continually at odds in theological squabbles.

Do you believe for example that the "perfect" mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13 refers to the Bible? As opposed to the Second Coming of Christ or some such? Why or why not?

Any input you can pass along is appreciated. Anybody else reading this feel free to pitch in.

Just by way of overview, I personally do not believe that the "perfect" in 1 Corinthians refers to the Bible for reasons that I will go into later. I am not entirely sure what it refers to but I do not believe that it is the Bible. Thus I do not see the gifts as having passed away. I do believe that all the sign gifts are for today just as they were in New Testament times. I do not know of any verses that clearly indicate they are not.

Carlos

[stevehut]

So please tell me.

[stevehut]

Oh yes, you also asked about "perfection".

Some would say that this refers to the second coming of Christ. But this could not be it, because every word that is used in the NT to identify Jesus is a masculine word. "perfection" is a gender-neutral word.