Can We Interchange The Word "God" With the Word Spirit?

[Guest Ken Rank]

No one is asking anybody to do their work for them. But it is accepted practice in a discussion for the person making a claim to be the one who substaintiates that claim.

Brother Eric, I gave you about 6 or 7 links and you took one sentence from one of them... and btw, it was the weakest link and the one I almost did not include. Go back over the rest, google "why were vowel points added to YHWH" or "Massorite vowel points under God's name" and you will get all you need.

Peace to you.

Ken

[Guest]

No one is asking anybody to do their work for them. But it is accepted practice in a discussion for the person making a claim to be the one who substantiates that claim.

Brother Eric, I gave you about 6 or 7 links and you took one sentence from one of them... and btw, it was the weakest link and the one I almost did not include. Go back over the rest, google "why were vowel points added to YHWH" or "Massorite vowel points under God's name" and you will get all you need.

Peace to you.

Ken

Ken

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2 Thessalonian 2:13 (KJV)

Peace To You

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 16:13

Miss-Direction Is Strange Fruit Indeed

Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Psalms 32:2

For A Brother

And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Revelation 14:5

>>>>>()<<<<<

Diddle Not

See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

Deuteronomy 12:32 (NIV)

Philosophize Less

Be careful not to let anyone rob you [of this faith] through a shallow and misleading philosophy. Such a person follows human traditions and the world's way of doing things rather than following Christ.

Colossians 2:8 (GWT)

God Breathed These Words

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NIV)

And He Really Does Know What He's Doing

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, said the LORD.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Isaiah 55:8-9 (AKJV)

Believe

Because by grace you have salvation through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is given by God:

Not by works, so that no man may take glory to himself.

For by his act we were given existence in Christ Jesus to do those good works which God before made ready for us so that we might do them.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (BBE)

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

1 Corinthians 2:2 (NASB)

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Zechariah 4:6 (KJV)

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 44:6 (NASB)

"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Joel 2:32 (NASB)

[EricH]

No one is asking anybody to do their work for them. But it is accepted practice in a discussion for the person making a claim to be the one who substaintiates that claim.

Brother Eric, I gave you about 6 or 7 links and you took one sentence from one of them... and btw, it was the weakest link and the one I almost did not include. Go back over the rest, google "why were vowel points added to YHWH" or "Massorite vowel points under God's name" and you will get all you need.

Peace to you.

Ken

Actually I looked at all of them if you will re-read my post. The were simply added to aid correct pronunciation.

[Guest Ken Rank]

Actually I looked at all of them if you will re-read my post. The were simply added to aid correct pronunciation.

What is the correct pronunciation?

Peace.

Ken

[Guest Ken Rank]

From Web Bible Encyclopedia:

This name, the Tetragrammaton of the Greeks, was held by the later Jews to be so sacred that it was never pronounced except by the high priest on the great Day of Atonement, when he entered into the most holy place.

Whenever this name occurred in the sacred books, they pronounced it, as they still do,

Edited September 29, 2009 by Ken Rank

[EricH]

Actually I looked at all of them if you will re-read my post. The were simply added to aid correct pronunciation.

What is the correct pronunciation?

Peace.

Ken

Exactly what the pointings say it is

[EricH]

Why would they need them added to remind them of what they already knew?

Peace.

Ken

Actually one of the articles you supplied addressed that very issue. It was because Biblical Hebrew was being spoken less and less and the masoretes wanted to ensure that the correct pronunciations went forward. I do see what you are saying now regarding the claims of some of the articles. However, what I don't see is substantiation. Most say it is based on a long tradition. However, since the pointings were a later add, it is impossible for us to know for sure how it was really pronounced (short of the pointings). So anything we would say would be conjecture based on tradition. But I do see how the articles agree with your position. I just don't think the position is "provable".

[Guest Ken Rank]

Exactly what the pointings say it is

Which is what?

[Guest Ken Rank]

Why would they need them added to remind them of what they already knew?

Peace.

Ken

Actually one of the articles you supplied addressed that very issue. It was because Biblical Hebrew was being spoken less and less and the masoretes wanted to ensure that the correct pronunciations went forward. I do see what you are saying now regarding the claims of some of the articles. However, what I don't see is substantiation. Most say it is based on a long tradition. However, since the pointings were a later add, it is impossible for us to know for sure how it was really pronounced (short of the pointings). So anything we would say would be conjecture based on tradition. But I do see how the articles agree with your position. I just don't think the position is "provable".

I will settle this... and thank you Eric for being open minded. On some other sites, we wouldn't be where we are now. I will supply the missing pieces when I get home tonight a (finally) on my home PC.

Peace.

Ken

[Guest Ken Rank]

Eric, I did not have time last night, but lets just apply some common sense to this. (and THAT is not saying you don't)

If you agree that the vowel points were placed under the name to remind the reader to say Adonai, but still also believe it shows us how to pronounce his name, do you not see the contradiction? How can they be there to tell us NOT to say it and at the same time tell us HOW to say it?

Our own bibles bear witness to vowels points under the name added to remind us to say Adonai (Lord). What appears in our bibles, save for some VERY modern translations, when we see יהוה in the manuscripts? Does his properly transliterated so we can pronounce it name appear there? Or, do we see LORD? The KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, (etc.) all have LORD where יהוה appears in the Hebrew manuscripts they translate from. So if they are translating יהוה as LORD save in 2 or 3 places, then the other 6800+ times the translators are doing as tradition, and not the manuscripts themselves, attest to. If יהוה with it's vowel points underneath tell us how to say YHWH, why then do the translations of the Hebrew into other languages not place the name in a transliterated form so we can SAY IT, rather than replace it with LORD? It just doesn't make sense any other way.

And then, what is the proper pronunciation? Many will say either Yahwey or Jehovah. (We also see Yehowah, Yahvey, and others) The J isn't as wrong as we might think seeing the J had a "Y" sound before it took on the hard sound we hear today a few hundred years ago. All of those come from adding the vowels from Adonai into YHWH and this wasn't done before Christ, this was done when the Massoretic Hebrew was translated into other languages! I submit that none are correct and I will tell you why. In English to keep this easy to follow, the tribe Judah is really properly transliterated, "Yehudah." The ONLY difference between how the tribe's name is written in Hebrew, and how God's name is written in Hebrew, is the D. YHWDH, and YHWH. So if Yehudah is "Yah oo Dah," than YHWH would be "Yah oo ah." The vowel points added to YHWH do not bring this pronunciation, yet, it is more likely correct for the above reason. There is another way to say it, but I will not share it on an open board.... besides, it really can't be written out, you would really have to hear it. Bottom line is, "Yahweh" while I use it from time to time because it is understood as his name in modern terms, has little chance of being correct. In fact, I know of no scholar that can say with "100% certainty" how the name is said. And personally, the Hebrew concept of NAME (shem) is much deeper than "name" in English. But that is another, and interesting, thread.

But, that is my take, you are free to draw your own conclusion.

Peace.

Ken

Edited September 30, 2009 by Ken Rank