Which version of Judgement do you accept?

[Guest Butero]

The owners of this board have stated the following:

We believe that immediately upon death, the soul of the believer is absent from the body, and present with the Lord.

This would indicate that the doctrine followed here would be one of Particular Judgement. But what does Scripture say about that?

I have heard since I was a very little boy the words 'absent from the body, and present with the Lord. However, when you look at the Scripture, this is what it actually says...............

KING JAMES VERSION:

"6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

This is clearly different than what I've been taught. This is saying they wish to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. Just to be sure, I looked at the New King James................

NEW KING JAMES VERSION:

"6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

Again, they would rather be absent with the body and present with the Lord,................I believe it is safe to say..........wouldn't we all!!!

Just to check a third time, I looked at the New International Version.............

NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION:

"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

Again..............prefer.

This is quite different from what I have always been taught. Further, the bible states repeatedly that 'the dead know nothing', and 'the dead sleep'. So, how do we reconcile the two schools of thought, or is reconciliation even possible?

When you die, your soul goes to heaven or hell, depending on whether or not you are saved or lost. Your body returns to the ground in a state of "sleep." It is refered to as sleep because when the Lord returns with the souls of the saints at his returning, the souls will be reunited with the bodies, and they will rise up and be glorified. They will wake up, like Jesus woke up Lazarus.

[The Quiet One]

Butero wrote....

When you die, your soul goes to heaven or hell, depending on whether or not you are saved or lost. Your body returns to the ground in a state of "sleep." It is refered to as sleep because when the Lord returns with the souls of the saints at his returning, the souls will be reunited with the bodies, and they will rise up and be glorified. They will wake up, like Jesus woke up Lazarus./b]

Where is that in scripture? 1 Thessalonians says..........

4For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words./b]

Consider this...........nowhere in the Bible are the words 'immortal' and 'soul' found together. Paul taught the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ 'sleep', that they 'shall rise first'

Butero, are you saying that mankind is judged immediately upon their deaths? How could a person be damned, for instance, without judgement?

[Guest]

The Fruit Of The Spirit

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Let us not be desirous of vain glory,

provoking one another,

envying one another. Galatians 5:22-26

Is Love

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you,

and pray for them which despitefully use you,

and persecute you; Matthew 5:44

Love

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:

for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good,

and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5:45

Love

Be ye therefore perfect,

even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48

>>>>>()<<<<<

.... So, Joe, your understanding of salvation is that once you're saved, that nothing else is required? If I misunderstand, forgive me ....

Faith Is Required

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 3:12-14

And I'm Honored

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jude 1:3

And You Are Forgiven

To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

Titus 3:2

And It Was Always By Faith We Are Saved

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Hebrews 11:1-2

And It Was Always By Faith We Walk

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Habakkuk 2:4

And Only Jesus Saves

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 4:12

And Philosophies

And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Colossians 2:4-6

Just

Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Colossians 2:7-10

Kill

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4

Love, Joe

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Revelation 3:20

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:14-16

Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:16-17

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Revelation 22:18

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 22:19

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Revelation 22:20

[Guest Butero]

Butero wrote....

When you die, your soul goes to heaven or hell, depending on whether or not you are saved or lost. Your body returns to the ground in a state of "sleep." It is refered to as sleep because when the Lord returns with the souls of the saints at his returning, the souls will be reunited with the bodies, and they will rise up and be glorified. They will wake up, like Jesus woke up Lazarus./b]

Where is that in scripture? 1 Thessalonians says..........

4For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words./b]

Consider this...........nowhere in the Bible are the words 'immortal' and 'soul' found together. Paul taught the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ 'sleep', that they 'shall rise first'

Butero, are you saying that mankind is judged immediately upon their deaths? How could a person be damned, for instance, without judgement?

When Jesus was transfigured on the mountain before his disciples, Moses and Elijah were there speaking with him. God himself buried the body of Moses. This is recorded in Deuteronomy 34:6. That being the case, it had to be his spirit. Elijah had been transported to heaven in a chariot, so not so with him, but regardless, this shows that the body slept but Moses remained alive. Then there is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. They both went directly to paradise or hell. Hell is a type of jail or holding place till the actual final judgement takes place. It would be like having a person accused of a crime, and being placed in jail to await trial. Some criminals have to remain behind bars because no bail is set. While they haven't been convicted, they are still in jail. The end result will be that those who are in hell will be brought before God, judged, and sentenced to the lake of fire. It is not like there is any doubt of their guilt. It is not like some of those in hell will be found not guilty. Man will occassionally make mistakes like that, but not God.

[The Quiet One]

Butero wrote....

When you die, your soul goes to heaven or hell, depending on whether or not you are saved or lost. Your body returns to the ground in a state of "sleep." It is refered to as sleep because when the Lord returns with the souls of the saints at his returning, the souls will be reunited with the bodies, and they will rise up and be glorified. They will wake up, like Jesus woke up Lazarus./b]

Where is that in scripture? 1 Thessalonians says..........

4For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words./b]

Consider this...........nowhere in the Bible are the words 'immortal' and 'soul' found together. Paul taught the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ 'sleep', that they 'shall rise first'

Butero, are you saying that mankind is judged immediately upon their deaths? How could a person be damned, for instance, without judgement?

When Jesus was transfigured on the mountain before his disciples, Moses and Elijah were there speaking with him. God himself buried the body of Moses. This is recorded in Deuteronomy 34:6. That being the case, it had to be his spirit. Elijah had been transported to heaven in a chariot, so not so with him, but regardless, this shows that the body slept but Moses remained alive. Then there is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. They both went directly to paradise or hell. Hell is a type of jail or holding place till the actual final judgement takes place. It would be like having a person accused of a crime, and being placed in jail to await trial. Some criminals have to remain behind bars because no bail is set. While they haven't been convicted, they are still in jail. The end result will be that those who are in hell will be brought before God, judged, and sentenced to the lake of fire. It is not like there is any doubt of their guilt. It is not like some of those in hell will be found not guilty. Man will occassionally make mistakes like that, but not God.

These are things to consider, and I will do that. Please consider this, the text clearly states that it was Moses and Elijah. I fully believe that God brought them there to show the connection of Jesus to both the law(Moses) and the prophecy(Elijah). I don't know that they were spirits. I believe God brought them back for a purpose. You see, Jesus says very clearly in John 3:13 that no man has ascended to heaven except the one that came from heaven, that being Jesus. I'll believe what Jesus said on that one.

As far as your description of hell, I don't know of any scriptural basis that will support that, unless, as I believe, that hell is simply the grave, 'sheol'. That would make perfect sense, we wait in the grave for our judgement.

Thank you for your time, and God Bless.

To the King!