What do you think fo these passages?

[Matthitjah]

Someone asked about this particular passage in another section of the boards. I went to it and straight away G-d gave me insight into it. I have been pondering all this rapture doctrine of late. I believe in the Post Trib Rapture.

Matthew 14:22-25

22And straightaway Jesus commanded his disciples to get into a ship,and to go before him unto the other side, While he sent  the multitudes away.

23And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray; and when the evening was come, he was there alone.

24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.

25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.

Here is my interpretation. Jesus puts the disciple into a ship (The Church or his body of believers) and bids them to go before him to the other side (Spread the Gospel across the Sea{World}) While he sends away the multitudes.

When he departs the multitudes (The thronging world by his death on the cross) he goes up into a mountain to pray apart(Into heaven apart from his believers) The evening came(Late in history) and he was alone.

But the ship was now in the midst of the sea(World) being tossed by waves (Tribulation)for the wind (Spirit) was contrary(Evil).

The key here is the last part So in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them,walking on the sea.

He goes to the believers in time of trouble in the fourth watch of the night .The very last watch. walking on the Sea (or above or over the World).

In so he saves them from the Tribulation in the last possible point of the night (evils reign). He tells them" be of good cheer it is I;be not afraid."

He  goes on in verse 31 to say"O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Could that be because when the early rapture doesn't happen some will doubt their faith?

Just a provocative question.

I'm not looking to get hammered here. Just posing a question. I don't see the scripture for an early rapture.

Peace

:inlove: Amen

[wordsower]

I was post-trib for a long time and then I considered mid-trib but then I really started praying about it and now I believe there is a pre-trib rapture.  I don't really want to debate this as we have done it on so many threads.  It will all pan out in the end, right?  If there is no pre-trib rapture it won't affect my faith since my faith is in Christ, not the rapture.  Let me know what you think of this:

Jesus said in Matthew 26:29 that He would not drink of the fruit of the vine until He drinks it with us in heaven.  2 Peter 3:10 says the day of the Lord will come like a theif in the night, while Revelation 1:7 says He will come with clouds and every eye will see Him.  Then in Rev 3:3  it says again that He will come as a theif in the night and you will not know what hour He comes.  It doesn't take a genius to see that if He comes in clouds and every eye will see Him, you will know what hour He comes.  We know that a theif comes to take something and this theif is stated as coming in the night.  In the parable of the 10 Virgins the bridegroom came at midnight (Matt. 25:6)

Parable of the Prodigal Son

The definition of a parable is:  'An earthly story with a heavenly meaning'  Jesus spoke in parables with a simple story relative to everyone and a parallel meaning to those who understood the things of the Spirit.  When the disciples asked Jesus in Matthew 13:10  "Why do You speak to them in parables?" He answered and said unto them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.  He goes on to say that the reason it wasn't given to them is because their hearts had become dull.  Their eyes were closed.  They listened with their ears and saw with their eyes instead of listening to their hearts.

In the parable, the father has two sons.  I believe these represent the Jews and the Gentiles.  The Gentiles first squandered their inheritance.  For approximately the first 4000 years they were lost.  The Jews are God's chosen people, for the first 4000 years or so until Jesus' first coming they were supposed to be the light to the world.  When Jesus came, the gentiles received Him while the Jews didn't recognize Him as they were looking for a king to come and reign.  When the first son returns home to his father, the father puts the best robe on him.  The robe represents Jesus.  He is the robe of light.   Isaiah 61 speaks of the second coming of the Lord.  In verse 10 Isaiah says:  "I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God;  For He has clothed me with the garment of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteouseness, as a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.  verse 11:  For as the earth brings forth its bud, as the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth, So the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all nations."

Next, the father put a ring on his hand.  This represents the inheritance being given to him.   The signet ring was used like a stamp or seal to sign important documents showing ones authority such as in Esther 3.  In Genesis 41:42 Pharoah gave his signet ring to Joseph and clothed him in garments of fine linen, giving him the authority of the king.  Our inheritance is eternal life through Christ Jesus and we are sealed by the Spirit.  Ephesians 1:13,14:  In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possesion, to the praise of His glory.

Next, he put sandals on his feet.  These represent protection and provision.  Deut. 33:24,25:  And of Asher he said:  "Asher is most blessed of sons; Let him be favored by his brothers, and let him dip his foot in oil.  Your sandals shall be iron and bronze; As your days, so shall your strength be."  Asher was Leah's maid's son by Jacob in Genesis.  Leah was Jacob's first wife, but he really wanted to marry Rachel, just as the Gentiles (the church) are Christ's bride even though He chose the jews first.

Then the father called for a great feast for his son (the Gentile).  When the older son (the Jew) came near the house and heard the music and dancing, he called to one of the servants and asked what these things meant.  The servant told him that his brother had come home and was received safe and sound and his father had thrown a great party for him.  The older son is jealous and angry and wont go into the feast even though the father pleads with him to enter.  He tells his father he has kept his commandments from the beginning and this brother has foolishly wasted his inheritance!  Why is he getting this special feast while the faithful son gets none?  The father explains to the older son that he is always with him and all that he has is his but it is right that they make merry for his brother because he was lost and is found, he was dead and is alive!  This is obvious that the older son is the chosen Jew and the Gentile is the one who was lost and is found, was dead and is alive

Paul explains this plainly in Romans chapter 10.  Israel rejected Christ and the prophets while the Gentiles believed and were saved.  Rom. 10:1-11:  Bretheren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.  For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.  For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.  For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."  But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is to bring Christ down from above) or, "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead) But what does it say? "The word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.  For with the heart one believes to righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made to salvation.  For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."  verse 16-21: But they have not all obeyed the gospel.  for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"  So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.  But I say, have they not heard?  Yes indeed:  "Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to to the ends of the world."  But I say, did Israel not know?  first Moses says:  "I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, (the Gentiles) I will anger you by a foolish nation."   But Isaiah is very bold and says: "I was found by those who did not seek Me;  I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me."  But to Israel he says:  All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

Paul goes on to say that Israel's rejection is not total:  Chapter 11:1-10:  I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not!  For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.  Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel saying, "Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone and left, and they seek my life"?  But what does the divine response say to him?  "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."  Even so then, at this time,  there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.  But it is of works, it is no longer grace, 0therwise work is no longer work.  What then?  Israel has not obtained what it seeks, but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were hardened.  Just as it is written:  "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day."  And David says:  "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a recompense to them;  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always."  

So what is the purpose of Israel's rejection?  Rom. 11:11-14: I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall?  Certainly not!  But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.  Now if their fall is riches for the world and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more is their fullness!  For I speak to you as Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.

He goes on to say how we were grafted in because of our belief in Jesus and the jews will be grafted back in, but when?

Rom. 11:25:  For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.  And so Israel will be saved, as it is written:  "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away the ungodliness from Jacob;  For this is My covenant with them, when I take away thier sins."  

What is the fullness of the Gentiles?

Isaiah 11:1-4:  There shall come forth a Rod (Jesus) from the stem of Jesse (Israel), and a Branch (Christians) shall grow out of his roots.  The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might,  The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.  His delight is in the fear of the Lord and He shall not judge with the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth, He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.  1:10  "And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, and His resting place shall be glorious.  It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set his hand again the second time  to recover the remnant of His people who are left.

[Matthitjah]

Wordsower,

Excellent ! You have written eloquently and well. Obviously you are a person who takes his salvation seriously and is of the Spirit.

You are correct it matters not who's right Post Or Pre to men and women such as ourselves(Of the Spirit). Yet the lukewarm Christians who buy novels about end times and read them like wrote. Rather than the true Word of G-d. (Who is Jesus the Christ) They are in danger of being spit out for their faith is weak. When things come to pass as they will soon. We must be correct in our Eschaetology for we will be the answer men as it were.

Even if your Pre Trib . These things will not come to pass until that man of perdition be revealed. The Mark may be on the upswing by then. Not yet institutionalized yet really cool to young people. (Thats how it will be introduced ,like a tatoo cool! All the fashion models have one even Brittany Spears)

I will reread and pray on what you've written.

"I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."  Even so then, at this time,  there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.  But it is of works, it is no longer grace, 0therwise work is no longer work.  What then?

This I have heard said we are not the Elect so Christ is not speaking to us in Matthew 24. You have written that to be elect is to be under Grace.

Revelation 1:7 says He will come with clouds and every eye will see Him.

If every eye see's him? Why would they not then believe and be saved? If the rapture is early this would give those people who see him a proof that you and I do not even have for they will have seen him coming in power and glory. They won't have  that advantage because when he comes the Wrath will follow.(Too late).

What about this passage?

Luke17:29" But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven, and destroyed them all."

Now G-d saved Lot from Sodom. Like he will save us from the Earth. His Wrath immediately followed Lot out. Lot was barely on the outskirts of the city when destruction began . So too could we be barely out of the world and the Wrath begins. Lot was already in Tribulation when the Angels came. Poor Lots wife though her faith was not strong enough she could not let go of the world. She liked the city.

I will continue to seek Wisdom on this subject and more scripture. I think through debate the body of Christ can work these things out. It is important to me as I believe time is short and much will be expected of me when these things come to pass. :thumb:

Peace :inlove: Amen

[wordsower]

Your open-mindedness is refreshing.  I too just want the truth, I could care less about being 'right'.  Too many here will just ignore any points to make their own 'right'.

What about this one:  I didn't write the hebrew wedding part.

Parable of the 10 virgins

Matthew 25:  We have 10 virgins all with their lamps waiting to meet the bridegroom.  The foolish ones take no oil with them.  I think the Oil represents the Holy Spirit.  I believe that 5 of these virgins are Jews and 5 Gentiles.  The Jews were intended to be the light of the world but they let their lamps go out in their unfaithfulness to God.  However, God always had kind intentions toward the nations. Even though he chooses one nation from among all the nations in Genesis 12:1-3 by graciously raising up Abraham and his descendants, God

[angels4u]

Hi Wordsower,

Thank you for this nice article!!

Yes, I'm so happy that I am going to the marrige supper, very sad to say, the people who refuse Jesus now will have to go trought the Tribulation which will go on here on earth while the born again Christians will be in heaven for a 7 year supper.

You are right, the tribulation will begin after Rev:4.

It does not really matter what we believe when the rapture will happen,I believe before the Tribulation,what matters is what we did with Jesus!! And then some people might be suprised to be there already when they didn't expect it yet!!

Amen, Jesus come, Angels

[wordsower]

Can't wait to see ya there Angels!

[Matthitjah]

I understand what your saying. I read the virgins to be the Christians who have a form of G-dliness denying its power. The oil is the Spirit. The lukewarm Christians will not have it.

We are to remain Chaste unto Christ. Like a virgin unto him.Not going after other spirits or Idols(ie. Money, Gods,cars, Houses....etc...)I just don't think we are the Bride. The bride seems to be the new Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven Angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come I will show thee the bride, the Lambs wife.

verse 10 And he carried me away in the spirit and to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the Holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from G-d.

We are invited to the Wedding. We must have on the right Garment though we also must have the oil in our lamps. I f there is no oil in our lamp we will not shine. Like a light unto the world.

He has said we are his friends. When the friends hear the shout and the Trumpet they are gathered to celebrate and meet the betrothed.

We are gathered at the last Trump. When the seventh angel sounds.John heard the voice of the Lord like a trumpet saying come up hither. Not the last Trump.

Now if we are taken. Would you not agree that some will be saved by this mere fact. That in seeing that we are gone. They will remember what we have preached and fall on their knees for mercy of the Lord. If we the Saved the Elect under grace are the Bride? They too would be the Bride for they will be saved out of the Tribulation. Why if they are written in the Lambs book of life and so are we and he knew of their salvation as he foreknew ours why should they suffer Tribulation and not us? Is G-d not just? Does he not pay a penny for working all day just as he pays a penny for those whom he called to work at the end of the day?Matthew20:1-16

We are reminded and warned again and again not to take the Mark of The Beast. We are told in Revelation that this is the Patience of the Saints. Those who die after this Mark are blessed because they die in the Lord from Henceforth.Revelation14:13

If we are gone would not the Lord have been remiss to have left some of the Bride behind? For he forknew they would be saved? They would be Elect as they are under Grace for they will believe. I believe there will come a time when Grace will be cut off. Then if you believe it will be too late because the Wrath is coming. We willl be caught up in the air to be with the Lord. First the first fruits which are the dead in Christ then those who remain alive and believe form out of the Tribulation.

Tough questions. I believe the Lord is just and righteous. When he sent Angels to save Lot from Sodom. If there had been other people worth saving would he have only pulled out Lot?(At the last minute I might add) So too he is Omniscient and he forknows all. If he were to pull us out and yet there were people to be saved out of Tribulation  Then the Bride would be incomplete. We are not the Bride .We are the guests.(The friends of the bridegroom as he has said)

This scripture also 1 Corinth15:23-24But every man in his order Christ the firstfruits; afterwards they that are Christs at his coming.

If those saved out of Tribulation are also his? Wherefore were they missed?

Then Cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to G-d, even the father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

If we go and the A.C. is ruling? How can this passage be true?For surely the A.C will be ruling with authroity and power.That passage says the end is after he has come. Tough questions?

Peace

:inlove: Amen

[eve]

What about this passage?

Luke17:29" But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven, and destroyed them all."

[wordsower]

Dr. Luke,

I've thought of the foolish virgins being lukewarm but then that presents the problem that we are saved by faith and not works, so we can't be raptured on our good behavior can we?

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Wordsower,

I think the elect that are left are Jews that will be converted to Christ and witness to the others.

If such be the case and the pre-trib view is correct, then what is the parable about the 99 sheep that the shephard left in order to find the 1 lost sheep all about?

If such be the case, then how can the "bride" be made perfect, for without the "whole" body of Christ, the "bride" is only partial.

If such be the case, then who are the "multitudes from all nations, peoples and tongues" that are mentioned here:

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

As you can see those multitudes that go through the "GREAT TRIBULATION" are NOT all Jews. These are they that are spoken of here:

Matthew 24:21-22 For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Now, one thing that really puzzles me about the pre-trib doctrine. For some reason those who believe this, think that they will be somehow spared from the "tribulation" of this world, but all of scripture speaks of persecution, trials, even death in this world. We are urged to be prepared for the tribulation in our lives and particularly the "great tribulation" which is to come at the end, just before our Lord comes. The Jews certainly did not escape "tribulation". Jesus certainly did not escape "tribulation" and even death. I think all but one of the Apostles did not die some hideous death during their time of tribulation, and then we see the martyrs all the way from the cross to now and God has not allowed them to escape "tribulation" and even death. So how is it that the pre-tribbers think that somehow God will allow THEM to escape?

Now scripture does not only give us rules to live by, but it also gives us numerous examples of everything which it tells us about. We compare scripture with scripture to keenly search the Word of God. I say this because within the Word is revealed what "tribulation", even "great tribulation" really means and also what God's "wrath" really means. The scriptures give EXAMPLES of both and they are clearly defined in the contexts given. So I suggest for you pre-tribbers out there that you do a study of those two concepts and see for yourself what the Word is REALLY talking about.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie