leoxiii Posted October 13, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 512 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/30/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/25/1955 Share Posted October 13, 2009 My first question is about canonization:- 1. a) What biblical principle does it follow? b) Who inaugurated it and why? c) Have any outside the Catholic Church been canonized? a). That there are Saints in heaven. b). There was never a time when those who lived saintly lives or who were martyred for the Faith were not venerated by the Faithful. c). Not by the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox, Greeks, and Copts, have their own lists of Saints, but we Roman Catholics do not recognize them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRAZY_4_JESUS Posted October 13, 2009 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 40 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/02/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/13/1987 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I do hope that this all goes well...... just a kind and loving reminder..... keep the comments in love, if I would feel bad if some one said it to me, I will not say it..... ( I hope )..... blessings to all mike The coments have all the love in the world, I'm just trying to clarify a few things about Catholicism that many people have a vast misconception of based on a few books and testaments. Hi princess, There are certainly a lot of details we could ask about the RCC. I believe the RCC is a Christian Church and has many true believers in it, however I do disagree at a basic level with some of its doctrines. I would like to ask you, what is the role of Faith in Christ for a Roman Catholic? Is it important for a Catholic to know who Christ is, what He did and to have a personal faith in Him and Him alone for their salvation. We Protestants believe that living a good life IS important but that life is a result of faith in Christ, it flows from the Holy Spirit who is inside of Christians who have faith in Christ. We believe that we cannot earn anything from Christ, not because we don't believe in good works, but because scripture is really clear that we can do no good outside of Christ, that we were dead in our sins before He rose from the dead, all of our faith must be given totally to that fact of the Risen Christ who forgives all of our sins. Sorry for the run on, but I would be really interested in your view of faith and its role in the salvation of a Catholic? Oh it's fine for rambleing on, the more you ramble the more I can make sense of what your asking, that's how my brain works. So fait in Christ=salvation, that's how your church works, cool, but can you derail that train, I might also be suffering from vast misconceptions, but from what I understand once you're saved that's it, end of story, I can't do anything wrong to loose my place in heaven. For Catholics salvation is a bit more complex, simply because we can derail the train, our sins. I'm going to give a very extream example of how I view the faith in Christ=salvation: "Ok God, I believe in you now, you're my personal savior!" a woman cries out. "Ok, can't loose my spot in heaven now next on the list, become a prostetute, oh I know it's wrong, but eh I'm going to heaven anyway, might as well have all the fun on earth while I can." Now I know this is an extrem but it is kind of how that faith comes across. Now I'm going to liken salvation to pre-ordering a copy of a book and going to a midnight party to get it. What you believe is that there is no cost on your end, not now when you "pre-order" your spot, or when you reach the "couter" (jugement) because Jesus already paid for you. Catholics believe that we have to pay just a fraction of the cost for the "pre-ordering" and a fraction of the cost when we get to the "counter". I can't place an exact value on that fraction but it's probably less then 1% I don't know. Yes Jesus saved us, and yes, we have to accept that first, in Baptism and Confermation, but we also have to lead good lives, we're not geting to heaven if we never pray, if we're prostitutes, and if we've never shown repentance for any of the bad things we've done. And you're percicly right, we can't do good outside of Christ, but Christ still called on us to help others lest we be cast out of heaven. (See the story about the goats and the sheep.) Living a good life, and following Christ aren't optional, it's demanded of us (and I mean us universally as in every human on the planet) Sorry I started rambleing too, summery: Belief in Christ is vastly important, good works gets us into heaven because Jesus cast out those who didn't cloth him when he was naked, visit him when he was in prision, give him drink when he was thirsty, give him food when he was hungry, visit him when he was sick, shelter him when he was homeless, and burry him when he died (Corpral works of Mercy). Peace out ~Beka Beka, ur example, was a bit extreame! "next on the list stealing, would have sufficed lol". I, dunno about other denominations, but atleast the one i follow, states salvation is not by works, however this does not give us an automatic licence to sin and still expect to get into Heaven. Jesus said for us to " follow Him" and similarly Paul says " imitate me as i imitate Christ". furthermore he says " shall we sin that Grace may abound? God Forbid!" We as Christians be it of any denomination, are required to not only accept the Lord as our God and personal saviour, but also live the life of Jesus. However having said this, we can rant all we want about how " good enough" we are to get to Heaven, but if you take a closer look at urself u realise ur nothing-- even if ur a super-Pope or Pastor. The reason for this is because the Bible clearly states that a sinful man can never enter heaven, and thus we being sinners take shelter under the Blood of Jesus and through His grace we get into Heaven. So you can do all the good works u like and never miss a single church service, so long as u have sin in you, we rely on the abounding grace of Christ only to get to where He is. BTW to ur Question, -- I think its Pope Benedict.-- Question for you-- What is the aerial velocity of an african swallow when its travelling just above sea level? u wont need to look any religious sites to find that one! Peace out! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted October 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 13, 2009 My first question is about canonization:- 1. a) What biblical principle does it follow? b) Who inaugurated it and why? c) Have any outside the Catholic Church been canonized? a). That there are Saints in heaven. b). There was never a time when those who lived saintly lives or who were martyred for the Faith were not venerated by the Faithful. c). Not by the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox, Greeks, and Copts, have their own lists of Saints, but we Roman Catholics do not recognize them. Thanks Leo...I will follow this theme then if that's ok. a) So what according to Scripture denotes a Saint? b) When was the first saint canonized in the Scripture? c) Why doesn't the Catholic Church recognize others that are not Catholic but are assuredly Christians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted October 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted October 13, 2009 The Catholic definition of "works of the law" is the Torah. What is yours? Really the catholic church believes they are following Torah? all of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick-Parker Posted October 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 4,273 Content Per Day: 4.85 Reputation: 1,855 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1955 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I might also be suffering from vast misconceptions, but from what I understand once you're saved that's it, end of story, I can't do anything wrong to loose my place in heaven. You can't do anything to lose your salvation, once you are truly saved. Your example is not a good one because anyone who says, "I'm saved but I'm going to continue doing what I want to do" is just fooling themselves because they are not saved to begin with. When you are saved, the Holy Spirit immediately enters your body and begins His work. If your life isn't transformed, the Spirit is not in you and you are not saved. That's why OSAS should be IRSAS (if really saved, always saved. And you can know you are really saved by your changed heart and life; by the fruit you produce. Now, you can "backslide" and have a period/periods of rebellion and sin without repentence, but as the parable of the prodical son teaches, our Father welcomes us with open arms when we return to him, never having lost our place in the family. That's what I believe the Word teaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amor Posted October 13, 2009 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,194 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 34 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/18/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 13, 2009 My first question is about canonization:- 1. a) What biblical principle does it follow? b) Who inaugurated it and why? c) Have any outside the Catholic Church been canonized? a). That there are Saints in heaven. b). There was never a time when those who lived saintly lives or who were martyred for the Faith were not venerated by the Faithful. c). Not by the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox, Greeks, and Copts, have their own lists of Saints, but we Roman Catholics do not recognize them. Thanks Leo...I will follow this theme then if that's ok. a) So what according to Scripture denotes a Saint? b) When was the first saint canonized in the Scripture? c) Why doesn't the Catholic Church recognize others that are not Catholic but are assuredly Christians? The latter for bureaucratic reasons, I know Orthodox who feel they should more formally venerate Francis of Assisi, but aren't officially allowed to because he came onto the scene after the great schism which means hasn't be canonised by the Orthodox church. So it works all ways round. Thev Roman church, and I would assume the Orthodox , Copts Ethiopian and other traditions, have canonised some pretty dubious people, but by the same token there are some very dicey characters out there on the contemporary freelance protestant scene with their garish TV shows and prosperity Gospels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted October 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted October 13, 2009 but by the same token there are some very dicey characters out there on the contemporary freelance protestant scene with their garish TV shows and prosperity Gospels. And since when has a Protestant ever canonised anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted October 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I do hope that this all goes well...... just a kind and loving reminder..... keep the comments in love, if I would feel bad if some one said it to me, I will not say it..... ( I hope )..... blessings to all mike The coments have all the love in the world, I'm just trying to clarify a few things about Catholicism that many people have a vast misconception of based on a few books and testaments. Hi princess, There are certainly a lot of details we could ask about the RCC. I believe the RCC is a Christian Church and has many true believers in it, however I do disagree at a basic level with some of its doctrines. I would like to ask you, what is the role of Faith in Christ for a Roman Catholic? Is it important for a Catholic to know who Christ is, what He did and to have a personal faith in Him and Him alone for their salvation. We Protestants believe that living a good life IS important but that life is a result of faith in Christ, it flows from the Holy Spirit who is inside of Christians who have faith in Christ. We believe that we cannot earn anything from Christ, not because we don't believe in good works, but because scripture is really clear that we can do no good outside of Christ, that we were dead in our sins before He rose from the dead, all of our faith must be given totally to that fact of the Risen Christ who forgives all of our sins. Sorry for the run on, but I would be really interested in your view of faith and its role in the salvation of a Catholic? Oh it's fine for rambleing on, the more you ramble the more I can make sense of what your asking, that's how my brain works. So fait in Christ=salvation, that's how your church works, cool, but can you derail that train, I might also be suffering from vast misconceptions, but from what I understand once you're saved that's it, end of story, I can't do anything wrong to loose my place in heaven. For Catholics salvation is a bit more complex, simply because we can derail the train, our sins. I'm going to give a very extream example of how I view the faith in Christ=salvation: "Ok God, I believe in you now, you're my personal savior!" a woman cries out. "Ok, can't loose my spot in heaven now next on the list, become a prostetute, oh I know it's wrong, but eh I'm going to heaven anyway, might as well have all the fun on earth while I can." Now I know this is an extrem but it is kind of how that faith comes across. Now I'm going to liken salvation to pre-ordering a copy of a book and going to a midnight party to get it. What you believe is that there is no cost on your end, not now when you "pre-order" your spot, or when you reach the "couter" (jugement) because Jesus already paid for you. Catholics believe that we have to pay just a fraction of the cost for the "pre-ordering" and a fraction of the cost when we get to the "counter". I can't place an exact value on that fraction but it's probably less then 1% I don't know. Yes Jesus saved us, and yes, we have to accept that first, in Baptism and Confermation, but we also have to lead good lives, we're not geting to heaven if we never pray, if we're prostitutes, and if we've never shown repentance for any of the bad things we've done. And you're percicly right, we can't do good outside of Christ, but Christ still called on us to help others lest we be cast out of heaven. (See the story about the goats and the sheep.) Living a good life, and following Christ aren't optional, it's demanded of us (and I mean us universally as in every human on the planet) Sorry I started rambleing too, summery: Belief in Christ is vastly important, good works gets us into heaven because Jesus cast out those who didn't cloth him when he was naked, visit him when he was in prision, give him drink when he was thirsty, give him food when he was hungry, visit him when he was sick, shelter him when he was homeless, and burry him when he died (Corpral works of Mercy). Peace out ~Beka Hi Beka, Yeah the thing you will find is that the reason we are Protestants is that we disagree with Catholics and each other, thus Protesters as in Protestant.. Anyway my Church the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod does not believe in a onetime salvation experience then wham bang you are saved for life with no need for works. What we do believe is that faith is founded and imprinted in our souls at Baptism and we proclaim this faith at confirmation, and this faith leads us to do the works you mention, including the corporal works of mercy. But we do the works of mercy because as Leo showed these were given to us to walk in by God Himself; thus we walk in the works by faith. So we do the works because we want to do the works for someone we owe our life to, we do the works because we have faith and want to please our Lord and also we have a changed nature that seeks to please the Lord, not out of fear but out of love. The faith however is what the deciding point is, faith to us is not an intellectual ascent or something just of the mind, and it is something transforming which changes our very person and soul. Our works are works of joy, not works of obligation; they are not done out of fear, but out of gratitude and love. No works at all would indicate a lack of faith. In your example the prostitute did not have faith, regardless of what she said. Works assure us that we have faith that our faith is real. Sometimes it does seem like we are against works, we are not, what we really worry about is the pride of thinking that our works can earn us something from Christ, because we feel that if we could have worked our way into heaven, Jesus did not need to die, then we have to start worrying about how much is enough, how much would earn us a place in heaven? That question is never answered in scripture because the path to salvation is through Christ not through what we do. It is hard because what we do IS part of who we are. It is really just a mirror of what you are saying in some respects. I mean in your case why go to the Sacraments if you don't have faith that they are real? Why go to confession or take the Eucharist if you have no faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Now, I think I will get to heaven because I lead a good enough life and I go to church most every week. I could go on but to be honest that's the important part. Beka, that is works salvation. Salvation is not of man. It is ... Eph 2:8-9 MKJV For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. You are not saved by living a good enough life, or having a perfect church attendance. Why do you not finish the quote? Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. And this: Apocalypse 22:12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. If your works are those which God has prepared for you, then your reward is a heavenly one. If you walk in your own works, then your reward is the lake of fire. [cf. Matthew 25:31-46] That is the clear meaning of the Scriptures. Salvation is not a reward. It is a free gift. We are not saved by our works. Rather our works demonstrate our salvation. We are created to work, but our works do secure or merit salvation at any point. That is Christianity 101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 but by the same token there are some very dicey characters out there on the contemporary freelance protestant scene with their garish TV shows and prosperity Gospels. And since when has a Protestant ever canonized anyone? What! O'Bama Doesn't Count? >>>>>()<<<<< Papa? But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. Matthew 23:8-10 Or Daddy? And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6 Hell? There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1 Or Jesus? And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5 Faithless? Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12 Or Faithful? For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8:9 Don't Blame Your Denomination Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:6 For Your Betrayal Of Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. Jeremiah 17:7 Holy Blood Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:29 Stand Fast For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 3:8 Believe Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26 And Be Blessed Beloved Love, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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