Axxman Posted November 12, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 12, 2009 My prayers go out to all involved at this "church". When churches try to look like a cheap imitation of the world it never brings people to God. Instead of us being transformed to Him and worshipping Him, they try to change to make God more fun, and church not so boring. Let's replace the pews with chairs - take away hymnals and replace it with "praise bands" and karaoke worship. Replace Scripture with chicken soup for the teenage soul. Away goes reverence for God, because it is inconvenient for me to wear my suit. Away goes discipleship replaced with feel good spirituality. I would rather worship in a 16th century church that revered God than a modern day shopping mall church trying to repackage Christianity in a cellophane modern day cheap imitation box. But that's just me.... You are wrong to insist that innovative churches don't bring people to the Lord...flat out wrong. They are not attempting to "change" God...they are exposing a side of God that you are apparently not familiar with. God is the source of our Joy and Happiness, not the source of boredom and idleness. I find it wholly depressing that you have never done worship karaoke...lol. I also wasn't aware that hymnals were the only scripturally approved song book. And since when is how a person dresses in church make them more spiritual? There is nothing necessarily wrong with you wanting an old fashioned church...but there is alot wrong with you judging others simply because they don't do it your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted November 12, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 12, 2009 This 'gimmick' is harmless, and probably alot of fun... Eve thought the serpent's gimmick was harmless and would be alot of fun, too, and she ate of the fruit God told her not to. You can read about it in Genesis Chapter 3 Eve was specifically ordered by God Himself to not eat the fruit. We have been ordered to spread the Gospel and to use every means possible, become all things to all men that we might save some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSLewis Posted November 12, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 828 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/28/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/28/1980 Share Posted November 12, 2009 My prayers go out to all involved at this "church". When churches try to look like a cheap imitation of the world it never brings people to God. Instead of us being transformed to Him and worshipping Him, they try to change to make God more fun, and church not so boring. Let's replace the pews with chairs - take away hymnals and replace it with "praise bands" and karaoke worship. Replace Scripture with chicken soup for the teenage soul. Away goes reverence for God, because it is inconvenient for me to wear my suit. Away goes discipleship replaced with feel good spirituality. I would rather worship in a 16th century church that revered God than a modern day shopping mall church trying to repackage Christianity in a cellophane modern day cheap imitation box. But that's just me.... You are wrong to insist that innovative churches don't bring people to the Lord...flat out wrong. They are not attempting to "change" God...they are exposing a side of God that you are apparently not familiar with. God is the source of our Joy and Happiness, not the source of boredom and idleness. I find it wholly depressing that you have never done worship karaoke...lol. I also wasn't aware that hymnals were the only scripturally approved song book. And since when is how a person dresses in church make them more spiritual? There is nothing necessarily wrong with you wanting an old fashioned church...but there is alot wrong with you judging others simply because they don't do it your way. It is not about "my" way - I love football and steak but that doesn't mean I should create a church that shows football games on Sunday and feeds us steak and beer for the Eucharist instead of bread and wine. If people don't want to come to church because it is "boring" that is up to them but the church should not change to try to attract new members. Nothing you do is going to make Christianity fun - He tells us to take up our cross daily and follow him-there is no glamour and fun in that - it is unselfishly giving back to God what He has given to us. If some don't come to church because it is boring then perhaps that is where they should stay. I don't think we should try to trick people into christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted November 12, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 12, 2009 The greatest music of all time is Christian or sacred music ( Bach, Beethoven , Handel etc.) so why should we worship him with anything less? Hank (to a "hardcore" christian rock band): "Can't you see you're not making christianity any better, you're just making rock 'n roll worse". Thats an opinion...nothing more, nothing less. I'd rather listen to a hardcore Christian rock band (and I frequently do) than the classical musicians...but again that is simply my preference. It would be silly for me to think less of you, or cast judgement on you, because of what style of music you prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted November 12, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 12, 2009 It is not about "my" way - I love football and steak but that doesn't mean I should create a church that shows football games on Sunday and feeds us steak and beer for the Eucharist instead of bread and wine. If people don't want to come to church because it is "boring" that is up to them but the church should not change to try to attract new members. Nothing you do is going to make Christianity fun - He tells us to take up our cross daily and follow him-there is no glamour and fun in that - it is unselfishly giving back to God what He has given to us. If some don't come to church because it is boring then perhaps that is where they should stay. I don't think we should try to trick people into christianity. You're church doesn't show football... lol WE are the church. The people I congregate and worship with are the church. We as a church are NOT changing to try to attract new members. We are coming together as a church and enjoying ourselves and being ourselves. If we suddenly became an old fashioned church for some reason...we would then be changing our church (who we are). We the church don't have a hi-tech praise band to attract more members..we have it because thats who we are. We the church don't have alot of fun to attract more members...we have fun because thats who we are. We the church don't have a restaurant, a full service coffee bar, nice soft comfy seats, multi-media, etc, etc, etc to attract more members...we have that stuff because thats who we are. We are the church! Nobody gets tricked into Christianity. I am sorry that you view the act of taking up your cross for Christ as a burden...I view it as an honor, and quite honestly I try having fun with it. I seem to recall that Christ said His yoke was easy, and His burden was light. Jesus said, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." But you'd probably confuse that comfort/rest as a gimmick becuase it doesn't fit in with your views on the severity of servitude. I am sure you attend a fine church and I am happy that you are getting what you need from them...but you really shouldn't be so harsh or judgemental towards groups of Christians (churches) and their communities that do it differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted November 12, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 12, 2009 Brother, we are to do His work for equip the saints and for the edification of the body. How is this doing either??? What I don't understand is how you can take the freedom in Christ that was given and apply it to gambling. Nobody is paying to enter, so one could say it is not gambling, but for those who come in to "win the prize" changes the desire of their heart from Christ to money. There are so many places in scripture, and is elementary in nature, that talks about serving two masters. Hi bro...please see Isaiah 6:8's reply above, as it really echoes my own thoughts. I am also surprised that you can so easily jump to the conclusion that this man is serving two masters. Would I operate the same way?....absolutely not, it's not my sort of thinking....but I have been around long enough to see great diversity within the body of Messiah, and some things which on the face of it might seem outlandish, actually work. I think time will tell if this man's ministry is of G-d...but you and other's obviously have heard enough already from the single newspaper clip...you might be right, but I prefer to give the guy a chance especially as apart from the gimmicky aspect I cannot honestly see something overtly wrong with what he is attempting. I agree with some of the possible dangers that C S Lewis points out, and I daresay there are all sorts of problems that may arise from this experiment...hopefully if the Pastor realises he has created more problems than he has helping people, he will rethink his method. One does go to 'Church' to worship and be fed...but at the end of the day there is room for all kinds of teaching...and as far as I can tell his method might be unorthodox, but his teaching about money is graphic and practical. I also agree with Isaiah 6:8, but what does this have to do with what this minister is doing? I am sure when we say "Here am I! Send me." we are not talking about what this preacher is doing. That is the twisting of scripture I referred to earlier, how when we see something we want to do, that we think is cool and new, we can always find scripture to back it up. Be careful brother. Even those who have been around a long time can get tripped up. Why did you not reply to the scripture I gave to show you why I feel this way? To answer your concern, I am against all trickery that has become so accepted in today's churches. What does this say to me? Come and win money, rip up your credit cards and start a savings account. Bank business should be done in the banks. Preach against debt, yes. Preach for savings, yes. Place a shredder in church, bring in bank representatives, have a drawing to win money ... no. Hi Onelight....sorry computer was down for a day...beastly bugs! I don't think you understood that I was not quoting Isaiah 6:8....I was referencing a members post who goes by that name...just check back a ways....so there ain't any twisting of Scripture going on...and I am aware that any of us can be misled and make mistakes from the Pastor to the newest convert....and we do. I did not know I needed to reply directly to the Scripture you gave from Ephesians, where you equate what this Pastor is attempting as being party to vs 14:'THE TRICKERY OF MEN'...it is in the context of deliberate deception, and I think that is a very harsh judgment on the guy. I don't really see it as gambling either, because no one is losing any money or getting addicted to something that takes over their lives. You and I might not do what this Pastor is doing....but we don't know him, we don't know if he is just interested in making headlines or proud of getting a large congregation or is actually trying out an idea that enables him to both teach the congregation, and preach to the unconverted, and yet people are making all sorts of judgments here, as if they know him personally. I still have not seen one thing by which I feel I can condemn him...in fact the opposite, for whether he is right or wrong, he has some chutzpah and some vitality in him, and appears to be trying his best. I too am dead against all sorts of trickery I have witnessed in the Church...but this man is not trying to trick anyone...and I do not see 'Church' as some sort of Holy place...it is a building, nothing more, nothing less....and as for wearing suits out of some sort of respect and just sing the tradition classical hymns, may be ok for some, but is not a blue-print for others. Anyway...as someone has already stated, there are two schools of thought here....and both schools are based on a certain amount of assumption and speculation...on the one hand are those of us who say...'give the guy a break' on the other side are those that say 'string him up real high'. Are they both 'zealous for the L-rd'?...I guess only the L-rd can know as He looks into our hearts and sees our motives for saying what we think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikki1 Posted November 12, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 98 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,260 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 55 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 This 'gimmick' is harmless, and probably alot of fun... Eve thought the serpent's gimmick was harmless and would be alot of fun, too, and she ate of the fruit God told her not to. You can read about it in Genesis Chapter 3 Eve was specifically ordered by God Himself to not eat the fruit. We have been ordered to spread the Gospel and to use every means possible, become all things to all men that we might save some. I noticed you overlooked the consequences of disobedience to God's Word the human race has suffered from by inheriting sin ...Never the less, I'll move on and address the few words you took out of context attempting to justify your unbiblical position. Just as Eve disobeyed God's Word, so are the churches using gimmicks (deception), preying on the lost and the congregation for money, and we have been seeing the dire consequences for years as Christ's church moves further into apostasy, becomming a part of the world, when we as Christians have been called out of the world by Christ. It simply is not scriptural no matter how you or others try to spin it. 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 (King James Version) 19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. If you read further into the next chapter, the Apostle Paul clairfies his words and elaborates more on the above passage, and speaks of how to relate to Jews and Greeks in order to win them to Christ. 1 Corinthians 10: 31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatever ye do, do all to the glory of God. 32.Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God. in other words, adapt as much as you can in scriptural, non-sinful ways 33Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved. And Paul further clarifies in 1 Corinthians 11, clarifying his words even more ....that you took out of context... 1 Be ye followers of me, even as I am of Christ Neither Jesus nor any of his chosen apostles ever used worldly gimmicks and deceptions to bring the lost into His kingdom and we don't have the authority to cheapen His name or His church by doing so either. Jesus quoted God's Word from the Old Testament as He taught His followers, and did miracles to prove who He was. Blessings, Nikki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted November 12, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 12, 2009 I noticed you overlooked the consequences of disobedience to God's Word the human race has suffered from by inheriting sin ...Never the less, I'll move on and address the few words you took out of context attempting to justify your unbiblical position. Just as Eve disobeyed God's Word, so are the churches using gimmicks (deception), preying on the lost and the congregation for money, and we have been seeing the dire consequences for years as Christ's church moves further into apostasy, becomming a part of the world, when we as Christians have been called out of the world by Christ. It simply is not scriptural no matter how you or others try to spin it. in other words, adapt as much as you can in scriptural, non-sinful ways Neither Jesus nor any of his chosen apostles ever used worldly gimmicks and deceptions to bring the lost into His kingdom and we don't have the authority to cheapen His name or His church by doing so either. Jesus quoted God's Word from the Old Testament as He taught His followers, and did miracles to prove who He was. LOL...did you have a point? No Jesus nor the disciples used "gimmicks"...but that didn't stop the pharisees of accusing them of it everytime they did something. Are you sure you are not being like that? Not ONE THING you posted refuted what I said..nor did you refute the line of scripture I used. The only reason it appears out of context to you is because you think everything is a gimmick. Its NOT A GIMMICK! Just because you call it a gimmick doesn't make it so. Its just something they decided to do for fun...and as an added bonus...it helps people out. Egads!! Even better...more people started showing up to church. Now I'm sure that wherever you worship considers things like fun and helping people out an anathema...but most of us actually like it and we use it in our everyday lives and that includes when we gather on Sundays. You haven't shown ONE IOTA of scripture that says what this church is doing is sinful...not one. You are casting judgements and criticisms on this church without any scriptural authority at all. You lead in with nuggets of wisdom about how the world has inherited sin as a consequence of disobedience (no duh!) and act like everything you say after that must be grounded in scripture...nevermind the fact that you have no proof that this church is using a gimmick as a deception...its a completely ludicrous connection. They are giving away money randomly to help people and to bless people. There is no gimmicky expectation in return, no trick or slight of hand, there is no dishonesty or attempt to cheat anybody...absolutely NOTHING that would define the negative connotation of "gimmick" that is being used by those of you making the accusation . Christ's church is NOT moving further into apostasy or becoming part of the world. Having fun and living joyful happy lives is not a sign of apostasy or worldliness no matter how much you want it to be. My church is incredibly fun and the Lord blesses my church tremendously...even though we give away tons of our tithes to people. Go ahead...tell me how gimmicky and sinful we are for giving money away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted November 12, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted November 12, 2009 Christ's church is NOT moving further into apostasy or becoming part of the world. Having fun and living joyful happy lives is not a sign of apostasy or worldliness no matter how much you want it to be. My church is incredibly fun and the Lord blesses my church tremendously...even though we give away tons of our tithes to people. Go ahead...tell me how gimmicky and sinful we are for giving money away... Come on, Axx, you act like you're surprised by all this. Why would you be? Isn't it the same old, same old...'if everyone doesn't do everything the way I do then they're wrong' spiel that repeated on this forum about nearly every subject? It grows tiresome, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted November 12, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 12, 2009 Come on, Axx, you act like you're surprised by all this. Why would you be? Isn't it the same old, same old...'if everyone doesn't do everything the way I do then they're wrong' spiel that repeated on this forum about nearly every subject? It grows tiresome, eh? Yeah...I kinda do take it personally because I hear alot of the same stuff about my church. My church is huge (membership-wise) therefore everything we do is called into question. "Oh, your a mega-church? You must be an apostate!" I guess it shouldn't surprise me...but I do wanna stick up for them if I can. (Seems I've been sticking up for the "wrong" people alot lately... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts