Will post and mid trib people miss a pre-trib one?

[Matthitjah]

Whatsitmean,

You are correct. I meant to address your post.

I know these scriptures are models.

The thing is that we see them much differently. I cite them to show G-d can deliver thru Tribulation. If this be the case. Why not so much more thru Great Tribulation? He will manifest his Glory thru such deliverence therby saving many more.

I never said there wasn't a Rapture.My point is over the timing of it.

I did say it happens after the ressurection of the dead in Christ .

Noah was separated after he had prepared the ark and God closed the door.

Daniel was separated after he had shown faith and was simply absent.

Rahab was separated after she had hid the spies and remained in her house.

These people were not swept away from Earth. Their faith saved them from Tribulation. Daniel is told at the end of the book of Daniel 12:13 "But you go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritence at the end of days."  What was his inheritence. The same of all the Prophets and the New testament saint's . The Resurrection of the dead. The Rapture is for those End Time Saint's left alive at his coming. Delivered thru tribulation.

1 Corinthians 15;51 Behold, I shew you a mystery We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The mystery and the last trump are important here.

Revelation 10:7 But in the day's of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of G-d should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.

Revelation11:18 And the nations were angry,and thy WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the Saint's, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This all lines up correctly with the verses in John 6:39, John 12:48, and Daniel 12:2

It appears that the reward given to the Saints happens at the same time as the judgement of the unsaved.

How can this be in a Pre trib rapture? How many raptures are there? How many ressurections of the Just?

I write here for the sake of everyone reading it. Really read the Word. In depth. I used to believe the Pre Trib Doctrine.Why? Just because some guy's on T.V. espoused it . It must be right. In the last year and a half I have really studied the Word. I have seeked diligently. I have prayed for counsel. Seek Holiness, Ask, Pray. I don't profess to know all. I am still learning. We will be accountable for much.

Peace

:inlove: Amen

[whatsitmean]

An interesting post yod.

[Guest FishMan]

Whatsitmean, a post-trib rapture has no credibility in OT models? Yeah, like millions of people suddenly disappeared all the time throughout the OT, huh? I must have missed those stories...  :thumb:

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Whatsitmean,

Our inheritance is not a resurrection.  Our inheritance is Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God.  We are children of God and JOINT HEIRS with Christ.  (Romans 8:17)  He has been resurrected, but has not as yet received His inheritance and He cannot until we do.  That is what a joint heir is.  I believe He receives the Inheritance in Revelation Chapter 5, before the tribulation starts and we are there.

I hate to say this, but this is one of the most flakey statements I have seen anyone on this board make. It is apparent why you chose your moniker. You are still wondering What's it mean? Only you are not listening to the many great counselors on this board and you are certainly unfamiliar with the WHOLE Bible. I suggest you throw away your current paradigm and start from scratch. Ask God and He will give you wisdom.

1 Cor 15:17-20 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

1 Peter 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

How can you have tribulation if you are not here?

Your Servant in Christ,

Dad Ernie

[Guest okiejack]

""""""""""I cannot accept that these things are hidden from us or that God does not intend for us to know what He has planned for His children. """""""""""""

Hmmmm. Interesting statement.

This secret, pretrib, rapture idea generates a lot of statements like the above. I have entered into these debates in a number of various venues and am usually accused of being less than a good Christian before the discussion gets very far.

The secret, pretrib, rapture idea is similar to the debate over to be or not to be baptized by full immersion. In my opinion there is nothing to debate. The scripture is chrystal clear on these issues.

Someone mentioned the fact that many Christians around the world are already caught up in the tribulation. I agree.

I pray to GOD that there is a pretrib rapture whether it's secret or not.

My question for those who believe in the secret, pretrib, rapture idea is this; From whom did you first learn of this secret, pretrib, rapture idea? Did you hear it from a human or from the Holy Spirit?

My challenge to those that believe in this secret, pretrib, rapture idea is; Cite a scripture or scriptures that clearly validates the secret, pretrib, rapture idea.

[Guest shadow2b]

""""""""""I cannot accept that these things are hidden from us or that God does not intend for us to know what He has planned for His children. """""""""""""

Hmmmm. Interesting statement.

This secret, pretrib, rapture idea generates a lot of statements like the above. I have entered into these debates in a number of various venues and am usually accused of being less than a good Christian before the discussion gets very far.

The secret, pretrib, rapture idea is similar to the debate over to be or not to be baptized by full immersion. In my opinion there is nothing to debate. The scripture is chrystal clear on these issues.

Someone mentioned the fact that many Christians around the world are already caught up in the tribulation. I agree.

I pray to GOD that there is a pretrib rapture whether it's secret or not.

My question for those who believe in the secret, pretrib, rapture idea is this; From whom did you first learn of this secret, pretrib, rapture idea? Did you hear it from a human or from the Holy Spirit?

My challenge to those that believe in this secret, pretrib, rapture idea is; Cite a scripture or scriptures that clearly validates the secret, pretrib, rapture idea.

hey okie--how-ya-doin??     well a lot of folks get accused of NOT being a christian because they don't agree with a particular point of view,BUT that don't make it so...SOOOOOO

don't get upset about it----  i kind-a doubt the pre-trib SECRET rapture my-self... the types referred to--ie--noah & the ark for instance---- noah was NOT taken OUT of the FLOOD, he was IN [a place of safety] the ark on the water not TAKEN somewhere off of the earth---and so-far no one has mentioned --MATT.chpt. 24---where the disciples of JESUS-YESHUA-- asked when shall these things be & WHAT shall be the SIGN of HIS COMING--OR RETURNING AND the END OF the WORLD?? very good questions which surely must be THE TRUTH, spoken by THE ONE that should KNOW what HE is talking about  ya-think?? care to lend us some of your wisdom on this subject?? i really would enjoy some BIBLICAL

truths to be expounded on -----      

                                        SHALOM

                                          shadow2b

[Guest shadow2b]

Wordsower,

[Catsmeow]

[ ---- noah was NOT taken OUT of the FLOOD, he was IN [a place of safety] the ark on the water not TAKEN somewhere off of the earth--- shadow2b

Shadow:

Amen and amen

You know I see so many happy, well-fed Americans who've never left this country, (except on pleasure cruises) and have no idea of the suffering Christians endure.

Having served in foreign missions (in a Muslim country) I can assure any one who reads this, that suffering for Jesus Christ is alive and well. God DOES often deliver them through persecution. Sometimes, (for His glory) He allows suffering but He always endows them with  power from on high to persevere THROUGH the suffering.

I voted on the poll and admit, "I DON'T KNOW" when ... pre, post or mid...I tend to be pre-wrath. I like RC's argument for pre-wrath...it makes sense. So does the interpretation for the "He" being taken, as being the angel Michael, because it relates very well to the book of Daniel.

In Daniel, we begin to see that there's a real war being raged on the spiritual level, (between angels and demons) which inhibit Daniel's prayers from being answered right away.

RC: I always love to hear the way you explain stuff. Smart man...! (but I still love my NIV... )

I agree with Shadow, we'll be delivered through the fire and not be burned and through the waters yet not drown... what we're going to go through, God will prepare us and equip us. He has workers in the Body, each with his own gifts and talents.

Blessings to you all.... -Cat

[Matthitjah]

To all,

In peace. My point in all this. I think the Pre trib rapture is part of the strong delusion. It only came into being  a short time ago.

I do not struggle here without a purpose.

If there is a special secret Rapture and only some believers go. Then some stay because they weren't prepared enough.

This makes a sham of Grace. Your Works can't prepare you for anything. The perfect work is done. You need only to believe and have faith.Then good works will follow.

This special Rapture theory places some believers before others. We all are equal under Grace. True some will be rewarded more.

The very fact that some believers will make it thru Great Tribulation. Even the Pre trib have to admit this in a twisted fashion. This very fact, if Grace were not equal ,would place them before the pre Tribber . The Pre tribber in his mind only has to endure life in terrible old America or Europe or some other country still yet recognizable..The Tribulation Saint will have to endure many evils we can only imagine right now.The world then for them will be like what Jesus had to endure.

Please say it isn't so. My Lord left Paradise of his own free will to partake in our retched humanity. He became hated amongst the World and his own people. Beaten ,Scourged, Accused, Betrayed,taking on my own sin and the sin of all humanity. Saying if the world hated me it will hate you too. Also saying in this World you shall have Tribulation.

Then we say, we shall not have Tribulation, but shall be swept away.

Tears are in my eye's contemplating the height of VANITY. Vanity came to Adam and Eve as well. The serpent told Eve surely if you partake NO HARM will come upon you.

I fear this doctrine is born of the same Vanity.

Pray brothers and sisters that we be counted worthy to stand before the Lord.

Peace

:inlove: Amen

[Guest shadow2b]

[ ---- noah was NOT taken OUT of the FLOOD, he was IN [a place of safety] the ark on the water not TAKEN somewhere off of the earth--- shadow2b

Shadow:

Amen and amen

You know I see so many happy, well-fed Americans who've never left this country, (except on pleasure cruises) and have no idea of the suffering Christians endure.

Having served in foreign missions (in a Muslim country) I can assure any one who reads this, that suffering for Jesus Christ is alive and well. God DOES often deliver them through persecution. Sometimes, (for His glory) He allows suffering but He always endows them with