OneLight Posted December 2, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.21 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2009 Most Believers say "I want to go to heaven" or 'I'm going to heaven when I die." Is that really true? Yes and no. Heaven is the abode of God, angels and spirits. The Third Heaven belongs to God. The angels and righteous spirits awaiting the resurrection go to heaven, but our ultimate destination is the New Earth, NOT heaven. Man was never made to dwell in heaven, but on the earth in an Edenic state. God created Earth just for us and on the Last Day the earth will be made new (renewed if you will) and the Church (the Bride, the Holy City) will down out of heaven having met Christ in the air, and we will reoccupy the earth. I'm not sure where the idea of eternity in heaven comes from, but the Scripture doesn't indicate that to be the ul;timate case. Will you go to heaven as a Believer? In spirit to await the resurrection, absolutely. After the resurrection, no. That is not to say that we will be 'earthbound' so to speak, only that our ultimate home will be the New Earth. (Before anyone asks, no, I am NOT a Jehovah's Witness. I don't buy a bit of their heresies. That said, a stopped clock is right twice a day.) The answer depends largely on your view of The Millenium. I believe Christians will be in Heaven for the Millenium, which will take place after the rapture. Ultimately, we all will be on the new Earth in the New Jerusalem Amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted December 2, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 When the Scriptures tell us that the dwellingplace (tabernacle) of God is with men, that is a reference to Christ. Once the wicked are judged, Christ dwells with men. The Father remains in the Third Heaven, which is His alone. There is a relationship between the Third heaven, the angelic heaven and earth which I believe is not unlike the Temple. Third Heaven-Holy of Holies, only God lives there and the High Priest may go in and out as God directs, since the High Priest is Christ The Angelic Heaven-The Inner Court where Believers dwell as spirits until the resurrection The current earth-The outer court. Gentiles (unbelievers) and believers both live there The New Earth-will replace the current earth and reopen the original time-space relationship between heaven and earth as it was before the Fall. Obviously the Earth was once holy because God walked here in the cool of the day. The Third Heaven is the province of GOD ALONE. Humans are almost never permitted there, although Paul seems to indicate that he knew someone who was taken there and saw things he couldn't begin to speak of. (Most commentators think Paul was speaking of himself.) The dwellingplace of men in eternity however is the New Earth. We may (or may not) go into and out of the Angelic Heaven, but the Third Heaven...no. Based on the Old Testament, only the High Priest is permitted to enter the Holy of Holies, and we know that the High Priest is Jesus and both God AND man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted December 3, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Share Posted December 3, 2009 When the Scriptures tell us that the dwellingplace (tabernacle) of God is with men, that is a reference to Christ. Once the wicked are judged, Christ dwells with men. The Father remains in the Third Heaven, which is His alone. There is a relationship between the Third heaven, the angelic heaven and earth which I believe is not unlike the Temple. Third Heaven-Holy of Holies, only God lives there and the High Priest may go in and out as God directs, since the High Priest is Christ The Angelic Heaven-The Inner Court where Believers dwell as spirits until the resurrection The current earth-The outer court. Gentiles (unbelievers) and believers both live there The New Earth-will replace the current earth and reopen the original time-space relationship between heaven and earth as it was before the Fall. Obviously the Earth was once holy because God walked here in the cool of the day. The Third Heaven is the province of GOD ALONE. Humans are almost never permitted there, although Paul seems to indicate that he knew someone who was taken there and saw things he couldn't begin to speak of. (Most commentators think Paul was speaking of himself.) The dwellingplace of men in eternity however is the New Earth. We may (or may not) go into and out of the Angelic Heaven, but the Third Heaven...no. Based on the Old Testament, only the High Priest is permitted to enter the Holy of Holies, and we know that the High Priest is Jesus and both God AND man. Since scripture says that when we see HIM we will be as HE is, andit says that there will be no need for a sun, because the glory of GOD will be the source of light, I have to say that I disagree with your notion that GOD will still keep HIMSELF separated from man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted December 3, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 Since scripture says that when we see HIM we will be as HE is, and it says that there will be no need for a sun, because the glory of GOD will be the source of light, I have to say that I disagree with your notion that GOD will still keep HIMSELF separated from man. God won't keep Himself separate from us, He (the Father) will always be with us. The glory of God IS Christ and the source of our light, for Christ is the LIght of the World. We will NOT be allowed into the Third Heaven though. That doesn't imply separation for unholiness, but for private reasons. Remember that EVEN the High Priest was permitted into the Holy of Holies only at certain times, and the High Priest was reminiscent of Christ. That was the pattern all through the Old Testament, the shadow or type of what occurs in heaven. I'm convinced that pattern remains. I believe God will come to US in the cool of the day as He did in Eden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 We will NOT be allowed into the Third Heaven though. That doesn't imply separation for unholiness, but for private reasons. What is your biblical source for that assertion? Remember that EVEN the High Priest was permitted into the Holy of Holies only at certain times, and the High Priest was reminiscent of Christ. Where is the third heaven equated with the Holy of Holies in Scripture?? There is a Holy of Holies IN heaven, but I would like to see actual Scripture that shows that the third heaven is equated with that. That was the pattern all through the Old Testament, the shadow or type of what occurs in heaven. I'm convinced that pattern remains. I believe God will come to US in the cool of the day as He did in Eden. The tabernacle is a type of Christ. The things in the Tabernacle point to Jesus as Savior and Redeemer. You are making a lot of assertions but offering very little Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted December 4, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 We will NOT be allowed into the Third Heaven though. That doesn't imply separation for unholiness, but for private reasons. What is your biblical source for that assertion? Remember that EVEN the High Priest was permitted into the Holy of Holies only at certain times, and the High Priest was reminiscent of Christ. Where is the third heaven equated with the Holy of Holies in Scripture?? There is a Holy of Holies IN heaven, but I would like to see actual Scripture that shows that the third heaven is equated with that. That was the pattern all through the Old Testament, the shadow or type of what occurs in heaven. I'm convinced that pattern remains. I believe God will come to US in the cool of the day as He did in Eden. The tabernacle is a type of Christ. The things in the Tabernacle point to Jesus as Savior and Redeemer. You are making a lot of assertions but offering very little Scripture. Was Moses not shown the pattern of things in Heaven? Yes, there is a Holy of Holies in Heaven...my assertion is that it is the Third Heaven. God dwells high and above all other things. The second heaven is the realm of spiritual beings and the earth the outer court in the layout of the universe. Naturally the present earth is defiled with the presence of sin, at the Parousia, it will be burned up, the fire indicating a cleansing before the form is changed into the New Earth. No one was allowed into the Holy of Holies except the High priest. We are priests and Christ is the High Priest. Only Messiah can enter the Holy of Holies. We have fellowship with the Father through Christ. God loves us and I believe will come to us as He chooses, but I believe the Holy of Holies will remain His domain alone. That is the pattern of the Old Testament worship and I expect that it will remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted December 4, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Since scripture says that when we see HIM we will be as HE is, and it says that there will be no need for a sun, because the glory of GOD will be the source of light, I have to say that I disagree with your notion that GOD will still keep HIMSELF separated from man. God won't keep Himself separate from us, He (the Father) will always be with us. The glory of God IS Christ and the source of our light, for Christ is the LIght of the World. We will NOT be allowed into the Third Heaven though. That doesn't imply separation for unholiness, but for private reasons. Remember that EVEN the High Priest was permitted into the Holy of Holies only at certain times, and the High Priest was reminiscent of Christ. That was the pattern all through the Old Testament, the shadow or type of what occurs in heaven. I'm convinced that pattern remains. I believe God will come to US in the cool of the day as He did in Eden. I do not see this in scripture and I do not agree. Not that it matters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted December 4, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 Since scripture says that when we see HIM we will be as HE is, and it says that there will be no need for a sun, because the glory of GOD will be the source of light, I have to say that I disagree with your notion that GOD will still keep HIMSELF separated from man. God won't keep Himself separate from us, He (the Father) will always be with us. The glory of God IS Christ and the source of our light, for Christ is the LIght of the World. We will NOT be allowed into the Third Heaven though. That doesn't imply separation for unholiness, but for private reasons. Remember that EVEN the High Priest was permitted into the Holy of Holies only at certain times, and the High Priest was reminiscent of Christ. That was the pattern all through the Old Testament, the shadow or type of what occurs in heaven. I'm convinced that pattern remains. I believe God will come to US in the cool of the day as He did in Eden. I do not see this in scripture and I do not agree. Not that it matters Look at the Old testament worship pattern. The priests served God in the inner court. The High Priest went into the Holy of Holies only at prescribed times, never as he pleased, but as God laid down the precedent. WE are the priests now; Christ is the High Priest, and when all is restored, the pattern will continue as it was intended. I don't see a problem here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted December 4, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2009 Hey, When the bible says, that there will be a "new heaven and a new earth"[/u[ as the earth will be renovated by fire. The heavens and earth will both be purified by fire as all evil will be vanished once and for all. There will be no Satan to come to steal, kill, and destroy, not one thought of evil to do, no grave stones as their will be no more death, they will be no demonic or wicked angels no more of those angels who rebelled and left their first estate as you can read in Genesis 6 what they did. The Lord is going to purge this old world and heaven to a place of everlating purity like we've never known before but the word of God gives us a glimpse into all of these things. Romans 8:18-25------vs 21) Because the creature itself also shall be "delivered" from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.....vs 22) "For we know that the "whole" creation "groaneth" and "travaileth" in pain together until now." Just as we yearn to be delivered from the bondage of corruption speaking of the redemption of our bodies where we no longer have to be tempted with our sinful nature the struggling will be over as we will have a glorified body no longer subject to temptation forever more. The curse will forever be destroyed when the redemption of our bodies take place. The whole world is under a curse since the beginning. Mankind, the serpent, and the earth were all under the curse as vs 22 tells us. For there will be a purification of both the heavens and the earth. Just throwing this out there but I noticed some were talking of the third heaven which I do believe. It is believed that the man was actually Paul himself the teachings about the third heaven comes from the scripture in...... 2 Corinthians 12:2-5--I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body. God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the "third heaven." vs 3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) vs 4) How that he was "caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which is not lawful for a man to utter." vs 5) Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in my infirmities. Back to the subject even though one comes and says, to us that all Christians are not going to heaven when we die doesn't make it true to me it is more or less a play on words. One has already brought up the theif on the cross in how he would be with him in paradise this day. (that is pretty clear to me. One can say, what they will but the saints will be in heaven whether they do away with the heaven as we know it on the earth, but for sure we "Christians will inhabit the new heaven." A scripture that encourages me is found in... 1 Corinthians 6:2-3--Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? vs 3) Know ye not that we shall judge "angels?" how much more things that pertain to this life? ....(encouraging because the saints will judge in the after life).... It was prophesied that there would be a new heaven and earth created so that truth has been around for a long long time. In the book of Isaiah are two verses about the new heaven and earth that will be made new again............ Isaiah 65:17-25------vs 17) For, behold, I create "new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." Isaiah 66:22--For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. Revelation 21:1 & 22:5-----21: vs 1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away: and there was no more sea.....22: vs 5) And there shall be no night there: and they need no candle, neither light of the sun, for the Lord God giveth them light: and they "shall reign for ever and ever." Revelation 22:3--"And there shall be "no more curse:" but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:" These are some more heart jumping encouraging scripture. In saying all I did my "point" is simply that Christians "DO GO" to heaven. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted December 4, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2009 The New Jerusalem will be too big to rest on the planet. I believe that it will be above the Earth. Maybe the New Earth will be bigger than this one. Seems it would have to be. Maybe it is not even in this dimension. Maybe it exists in an entire new space-time existence and so froth. I honestly don't think our conceptions of size will make any sense. I always get excited from these scriptures that gives us but a glimpse into that holy city and the magnificense that is there. The city is four sqare meaning in a square it has twelve foundations that is seen in scripture. The square will be 1500 miles in breath and length on all four sides. The twelve foundation are all of precious stone as told in the scripture and the twelve gates are all a solid pearl good glimpse there. The holy city New Jerusalem is so enormous it is simply mind boggling. It is about from Maine down to Florida and the square footage would be approximate the size of the moon (please read scripture that speaks about the size of the city New Jerusalem which we are heirs unto Revelation 21:5-6 Revelation 21:15-21 OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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