Openly Curious Posted December 7, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 7, 2009 'shiloh357' date='Dec 5 2009, Jesus' throne is the throne of David and that is always, without exception, an earthly throne. Jesus is not His throne. Jesus is currently our High Priest. The notion that Jesus is on a throne in heaven at the right hand of the Father is an anthropromorphism, as the Father does not have a right hand seeing that He is a spirit is not corpreal. Jesus will be on His throne until He returns to earth and establishes His Kingdom here and sits on David's throne. I would like to see scripture that backs up that the Father does not have a right hand because He is a spirit. I disagree with your assessment as scripture says, other wise. In the book of Acts Stephen "saw" Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:55,56--But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the "right hand" of God. And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the "right hand" of God. There are other scripture that validates that Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 I would like to see scripture that backs up that the Father does not have a right hand because He is a spirit. I disagree with your assessment as scripture says, other wise. God is omnipresent. He is everywhere. A body takes up a limited area of space, but God is not under any such limitations. God has no body, which is why no image can be made of Him. It is understood by most conservative scholars that references to God's "hand" or God's "eyes" or "feet" or other body parts are simply anthropromoprhic references. Acts 7:55,56--But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the "right hand" of God. And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the "right hand" of God. There are other scripture that validates that Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God. This is just an expression of Jesus' authority. Jesus is not sitting on a literal throne at this time. At this time, Jesus is functioning as our High Priest and is in the Holy of Holies making intercession for us. Jesus' literal throne will not be realized until Jesus returns and He is seated on the throne of David on earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted December 7, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Share Posted December 7, 2009 After looking at the Scriptures referring to the veil being torn away between the Holy of Holies and the Holy Place, I must say I made a mistake. The veil's tearing away allows us access where there was none before. Apparently, we will be able to go back and forth between the New Heaven and New Earth. I do still contend though that our primary dwellingplace will be the New Earth, because we'll have bodies, not JUST disembodied spirits (which appears to be our intermediate state before the resurrection. I do not understand why you believe we will be separated from GOD at all. Also, JESUS has HIS glorified body and is in heaven. That would mean that there is an ability for our glorified bodies to be in heaven. Seraphim and Cherabim have physical bodies. They are described in Ezekiel. Just additional points to ponder I agree that our ultimate dwelling place will be on Earth, but it is possible that the reference to a new heaven may mean a new set of stars and moons and such, since the current "Heaven" has in no way been corrupted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted December 7, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 I wasn't implying separation in the ultimate sense. I'm saying that we don't 'go to heaven' and REMAIN there, hence my title a misnomer of sorts. Christ is the ONLY human body of any sort in heaven. He doesn't remain there either. He comes to get us, we join Him and return to...the New Earth. Seraphim and Cherubim have appearances, just as messenger angels have appearances. When we look at them, the descriptions given is what we would see. But other criptures also say that they are spirits and flames of fire. Apparently, they only have those body forms when WE see them, for our benefit (most likely to keep us from passing out or keeling over). Whether they are corporeal while in the heavens is debatable. They most likely adapt to the situation in which they find themselves from all indication in Scripture. Humanity was not created to occupy the heavens, it was created to occupy the planet. All of our food and resources were placed here. God Himself deigned to come here and see us (Genesis). We may well be permitted to go into the vastness of the universes in the eternal state, but Earth is home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 I wasn't implying separation in the ultimate sense. I'm saying that we don't 'go to heaven' and REMAIN there, hence my title a misnomer of sorts. Christ is the ONLY human body of any sort in heaven. He doesn't remain there either. He comes to get us, we join Him and return to...the New Earth. Seraphim and Cherubim have appearances, just as messenger angels have appearances. When we look at them, the descriptions given is what we would see. But other criptures also say that they are spirits and flames of fire. Apparently, they only have those body forms when WE see them, for our benefit (most likely to keep us from passing out or keeling over). Whether they are corporeal while in the heavens is debatable. They most likely adapt to the situation in which they find themselves from all indication in Scripture. Humanity was not created to occupy the heavens, it was created to occupy the planet. All of our food and resources were placed here. God Himself deigned to come here and see us (Genesis). We may well be permitted to go into the vastness of the universes in the eternal state, but Earth is home. You have still not provided any biblical basis other than a subjective application of tabernacle imagery. You have assigned values to that imagery that the Bible does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franky67 Posted December 7, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 187 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/12/1925 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Most Believers say "I want to go to heaven" or 'I'm going to heaven when I die." Is that really true? Yes and no. Heaven is the abode of God, angels and spirits. The Third Heaven belongs to God. The angels and righteous spirits awaiting the resurrection go to heaven, but our ultimate destination is the New Earth, NOT heaven. Man was never made to dwell in heaven, but on the earth in an Edenic state. God created Earth just for us and on the Last Day the earth will be made new (renewed if you will) and the Church (the Bride, the Holy City) will down out of heaven having met Christ in the air, and we will reoccupy the earth. I'm not sure where the idea of eternity in heaven comes from, but the Scripture doesn't indicate that to be the ul;timate case. Will you go to heaven as a Believer? In spirit to await the resurrection, absolutely. After the resurrection, no. That is not to say that we will be 'earthbound' so to speak, only that our ultimate home will be the New Earth. (Before anyone asks, no, I am NOT a Jehovah's Witness. I don't buy a bit of their heresies. That said, a stopped clock is right twice a day.) We will rule and reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years, while satan is in solitary confinement. Isaiah 20:4 This beautiful time on earth without evil is described is Isaiah 11. and After the thousand years ?, read Revelation chapter 21. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted December 9, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 Most Believers say "I want to go to heaven" or 'I'm going to heaven when I die." Is that really true? Yes and no. Heaven is the abode of God, angels and spirits. The Third Heaven belongs to God. The angels and righteous spirits awaiting the resurrection go to heaven, but our ultimate destination is the New Earth, NOT heaven. Man was never made to dwell in heaven, but on the earth in an Edenic state. God created Earth just for us and on the Last Day the earth will be made new (renewed if you will) and the Church (the Bride, the Holy City) will down out of heaven having met Christ in the air, and we will reoccupy the earth. I'm not sure where the idea of eternity in heaven comes from, but the Scripture doesn't indicate that to be the ul;timate case. Will you go to heaven as a Believer? In spirit to await the resurrection, absolutely. After the resurrection, no. That is not to say that we will be 'earthbound' so to speak, only that our ultimate home will be the New Earth. (Before anyone asks, no, I am NOT a Jehovah's Witness. I don't buy a bit of their heresies. That said, a stopped clock is right twice a day.) We will rule and reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years, while satan is in solitary confinement. Isaiah 20:4 This beautiful time on earth without evil is described is Isaiah 11. and After the thousand years ?, read Revelation chapter 21. I think you meant Rev 20:4 Franky. The topic is about the idea of going to heaven being a misnomer. Rev 21 proves my point. TO where does the bride return? The New Earth, despite the fact that a new heaven is also brought to pass.We will have bodies in the eternal state, and bodies are the province of earth, while spirits are the province of heaven. We go to heaven when we die in this body, but we don't STAY there, we come back HERE. As for the millennium being exactly 1000 years...the early church did not believe that from all indication. Cerinthus, a Gnostic whom John opposed, was the first to interject a literal millennium into Christian thought and his writings and teachings were considered heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franky67 Posted December 9, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 187 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/12/1925 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Most Believers say "I want to go to heaven" or 'I'm going to heaven when I die." Is that really true? Yes and no. Heaven is the abode of God, angels and spirits. The Third Heaven belongs to God. The angels and righteous spirits awaiting the resurrection go to heaven, but our ultimate destination is the New Earth, NOT heaven. Man was never made to dwell in heaven, but on the earth in an Edenic state. God created Earth just for us and on the Last Day the earth will be made new (renewed if you will) and the Church (the Bride, the Holy City) will down out of heaven having met Christ in the air, and we will reoccupy the earth. I'm not sure where the idea of eternity in heaven comes from, but the Scripture doesn't indicate that to be the ul;timate case. Will you go to heaven as a Believer? In spirit to await the resurrection, absolutely. After the resurrection, no. That is not to say that we will be 'earthbound' so to speak, only that our ultimate home will be the New Earth. (Before anyone asks, no, I am NOT a Jehovah's Witness. I don't buy a bit of their heresies. That said, a stopped clock is right twice a day.) We will rule and reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years, while satan is in solitary confinement. Isaiah 20:4 This beautiful time on earth without evil is described is Isaiah 11. and After the thousand years ?, read Revelation chapter 21. I think you meant Rev 20:4 Franky. The topic is about the idea of going to heaven being a misnomer. Rev 21 proves my point. TO where does the bride return? The New Earth, despite the fact that a new heaven is also brought to pass.We will have bodies in the eternal state, and bodies are the province of earth, while spirits are the province of heaven. We go to heaven when we die in this body, but we don't STAY there, we come back HERE. As for the millennium being exactly 1000 years...the early church did not believe that from all indication. Cerinthus, a Gnostic whom John opposed, was the first to interject a literal millennium into Christian thought and his writings and teachings were considered heresy. But where is Jesus now, with the holes in His feet and hands, and side, he is at the right hand of God, so I don't know about everything in heaven being spirit. The Bible says 1000 years, no reason to make anything else out of it. Most Christians today don't forsee a thousand years rule on earth by Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted December 10, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted December 10, 2009 Most Believers say "I want to go to heaven" or 'I'm going to heaven when I die." Is that really true? Yes and no. Heaven is the abode of God, angels and spirits. The Third Heaven belongs to God. The angels and righteous spirits awaiting the resurrection go to heaven, but our ultimate destination is the New Earth, NOT heaven. Man was never made to dwell in heaven, but on the earth in an Edenic state. God created Earth just for us and on the Last Day the earth will be made new (renewed if you will) and the Church (the Bride, the Holy City) will down out of heaven having met Christ in the air, and we will reoccupy the earth. I'm not sure where the idea of eternity in heaven comes from, but the Scripture doesn't indicate that to be the ul;timate case. Will you go to heaven as a Believer? In spirit to await the resurrection, absolutely. After the resurrection, no. That is not to say that we will be 'earthbound' so to speak, only that our ultimate home will be the New Earth. (Before anyone asks, no, I am NOT a Jehovah's Witness. I don't buy a bit of their heresies. That said, a stopped clock is right twice a day.) We will rule and reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years, while satan is in solitary confinement. Isaiah 20:4 This beautiful time on earth without evil is described is Isaiah 11. and After the thousand years ?, read Revelation chapter 21. I think you meant Rev 20:4 Franky. The topic is about the idea of going to heaven being a misnomer. Rev 21 proves my point. TO where does the bride return? The New Earth, despite the fact that a new heaven is also brought to pass.We will have bodies in the eternal state, and bodies are the province of earth, while spirits are the province of heaven. We go to heaven when we die in this body, but we don't STAY there, we come back HERE. As for the millennium being exactly 1000 years...the early church did not believe that from all indication. Cerinthus, a Gnostic whom John opposed, was the first to interject a literal millennium into Christian thought and his writings and teachings were considered heresy. But where is Jesus now, with the holes in His feet and hands, and side, he is at the right hand of God, so I don't know about everything in heaven being spirit. The Bible says 1000 years, no reason to make anything else out of it. Most Christians today don't forsee a thousand years rule on earth by Jesus. Jesus' body is spirit-powered (for lack of a better term). It resembled the body which He had while on earth, however, it has no blood. Since His spirit powers it, He could do things like appear in locked rooms and take someone's hand and place it inside the spear wound in His side without pain and ascend into the heavens. The bodies which we receive at the resurrection will be similar. Paul calls the resurrection body pneumatikos or spiritual. Obviously, God is spirit, but Christ's body is spiritual. Being at the right hand of God is a euphemism. The right hand is the place of authority. All authority in heaven and earth was given to Jesus at the Ascension (Mt 28). God is spirit and literally has no hands, feet, wings etc. As I said before, "a thousand years" is not the same as "one thousand years". Christ has ruled since He ascended, and His Kingdom is embodied in his people. "The Kingdom of God is within you" was no idle statement, nor was "The Kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." The Jews looked for a physical kingdom, Jesus had to keep telling them that his Kingdom was not of this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 As I said before, "a thousand years" is not the same as "one thousand years". It would be interesting to see you demonstrate that accuracy of that assertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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