Who is Judah?

[tsth]

Greetings Bernie,

Glad you could join us.  Anyone is always welcome to jump in anytime.  

As the original thread poster, I would just respond:

For my part, regarding the original question, I believe the Lord has given me an understanding of spiritual [or metaphorical]  "Israel" and spiritual "Judah" as having application in the Scriptures representing the two great schisms in Christianity: Calvinism and Arminianism.

Now that takes us in a whole different direction and application.  As you believe in taking the Scriptures literally, as I do, then I would ask in response to your comment:

.  I tend to think of the Jews as specially chosen "actors" on God's stage which He uses to teach spiritual lessons that pertain to all mankind.  All the blessings, condemnation, warnings, exhortations, etc. apply in some sense to every individual on the planet.

You are in the same vein as myself in regard to spiritual lessons, only I would say, in line with my wondering about Judah and America being founded as a "Christian nation" and known as such, "in name" mind you, not adhereance, couldn't the same be said for us, in terms of what the world is seeing in relation to us.  Couldn't America and Christians be the actors before the Jews, to show the same picture about judgment, as the gentiles were shown of the Jews?  Isn't this the very same picture the world was shown about the Jews rejecting God the Son, as we are showing as a nation rejecting God too?  I mean we claim to be Christians, yet only on our lips, not in the heart, not in honor to His Word.  We reject His Word, and isn't the world seeing that?  To me, this just looks like the same picture, only this time it's the Christians rejecting God the Father as Supreme Authority.

Just wondering still.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Bernie & tsth,

I believe you are referring to:

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

For certain Israel is an example of the WORLD, and I am also convinced that the Levitical Priesthood is representative of the CHURCH. I believe that ALL nations will fall the way of Israel, that is their destruction in 70 A.D. So the Priesthood became corrupt and rejected their Messiah, which is also reflected in these verses regarding the church:

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

But those who know their God shall do great exploits:

1 Thess 1:5-8 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: 7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

So tsth, you are also correct that the "true saints of God" are examples to the whole world including the church, and it is these who follow the Lamb whereever He goes.

All nations will fall even as Israel did, but the "Kingdom of God" shall endure forever. Those who enter into this Kingdom TODAY (2 Cor 6:2) are the ones who will not have loved their life so much, even unto death. (Rev 12:11)

Israel, for the sake of the patriarchal fathers, have another day set for them wherein ALL Israel shall be saved. But their salvation is no different from ours. It is by grace through faith and that comes by the hearing of the Word of the Gospel which is administered by "the saints of God", even in the last days. (See Romans 11:30-31)

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[tsth]

I believe you are referring to:

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

No, Actually DE, I'm referring to the destruction of Israel, due to their rejection of Jesus Christ, because they did not believe what they were told by the Word about His coming.  In turn, are we as Christians denying the Christ also in terms of not adhering to the Scriptures in terms of obedience.  We accept Him in Name only, not in obedience.  Whereas the Jews accepted God the Father in obedience only, not in Name, of the Son, Jesus.  It is a mirror image today in terms of judgment.  They claimed obedience, no love.  We claim love, no obedience.  Either way, the fullness of Christ is rejected.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings tsth,

Whereas the Jews accepted God the Father in obedience only, not in Name, of the Son, Jesus.

I am afraid you err here. If they had been obedient they would not have killed the prophets and most certainly they would not have killed our Lord. The Gospels are full of references to their disobedience. They too only recognized God "in Name only".

The destruction of Israel in 70 A.D. was prophecied by Jesus when He said "not one stone shall be left unturned". He was speaking specifically of the temple in Jerusalem. This has no further application to the future as best I can determine. There are many other scriptures which DO tell of what is to come in the end times.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[tsth]

I am afraid you err here. If they had been obedient they would not have killed the prophets and most certainly they would not have killed our Lord.

Boy, I'm sorry DE, I'm just not conveying too well here.   I agree with you above, I just meant outwardly, they were all about obedience to the law, whereas we, outwardly are all about love, for mankind, to the point of being disobedient to God's laws (Word).  Acceptance of sin in the name of love.

Thank you for your responding to my posts though.     I just can't seem to express my what I'm wanting to convey.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Bernie]

Hi tsth,

You: "Couldn't America and Christians be the actors before the Jews, to show the same picture about judgment, as the gentiles were shown of the Jews?  Isn't this the very same picture the world was shown about the Jews rejecting God the Son, as we are showing as a nation rejecting God too?"

If I understand you correctly...Absolutely!  Most see Mat 7:13-14 as applying to individuals.  I do not; I see its application as primarily to the spirit of each individual.  Can be here in time or in the next life.

You: "I mean we claim to be Christians, yet only on our lips, not in the heart, not in honor to His Word.  We reject His Word, and isn't the world seeing that?  To me, this just looks like the same picture, only this time it's the Christians rejecting God the Father as Supreme Authority."

Yes.  We are quite smug in our Christian arrogance, just as the Jews were about their religious 'excellence', but we shall no more be spared God's righteous wrath than they.  God is no respecter of persons.

Something to think about....Jesus warns us that "Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?  And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." (Mat 7:22-23).   How many is MANY?  It could be just lots ...or lots and lots and lots....or even all.

What do you think?

God bless you in your walk.

[tsth]

Something to think about....Jesus warns us that "Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?  And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." (Mat 7:22-23).   How many is MANY?  It could be just lots ...or lots and lots and lots....or even all.

No, not all Bernie.  The distinction is in the phrase, "you who practice lawlessness.  You cannot serve two masters.  You cannot be devoted to the Lord Jesus and proclaim to work in His Name, and "practice lawlessness".   That is what the pharisee were guilty of.  It is hypocrisy of the heart.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Bernie]

Hi tsth,

(Yikes, how do you pronounce 'tsth'?)

You: [speaking to Mat 7:22-23] "The distinction is in the phrase, "you who practice lawlessness.  You cannot serve two masters.  You cannot be devoted to the Lord Jesus and proclaim to work in His Name, and "practice lawlessness".   That is what the pharisee were guilty of.  It is hypocrisy of the heart.

Lawlessness is from anomia, rendered "iniquity" (or unrighteousness, wickedness, violation of the law).  I assumed from your earlier posts that one point you've been making is that modern Christianity has many parallels to the negative aspects of the religious hierarchy of Jesus' day, which I agree with.  

I think the problem here is that we interpret the scriptures differently.  When you see Mat 7:22-23, you see the division as applicable to individuals and groups of individuals.  I see the application of these verses (and that of Mat 7:13-14, and virtually all the Bible, both Testaments) to various components WITHIN EACH person.

The great stumbling block in soteriology is in assigning elitist treatment by God of some individuals over others.  Interpreting the bible as pertaining primarily to individuals or groups of individuals (as per Mat 7:22-23, for example) is the cause of this.  The power of Scripture is more readily seen in the application of all its blessings, condemnations and decrees to various elements of the spirit of each and every human being ever born.

God bless you in your walk.

[tsth]

(Yikes, how do you pronounce 'tsth'?)

Like this:    

I think the problem here is that we interpret the scriptures differently.  When you see Mat 7:22-23, you see the division as applicable to individuals and groups of individuals.  I see the application of these verses (and that of Mat 7:13-14, and virtually all the Bible, both Testaments) to various components WITHIN EACH person.

You lost me here.

you see the division as applicable to individuals and groups of individuals

I see the application of these verses (and that of Mat 7:13-14, and virtually all the Bible, both Testaments) to various components WITHIN EACH person.

I'm not following, aren't we both speaking of individuals?  Each person and individuals, are the same.

I know you have a specific thought here, but forgive me, I'm not quite getting it?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[traveller]

(Yikes, how do you pronounce 'tsth'?)

Like this: