Teachers forced to 'hide in closets' to pray

[Axxman]

In other words, hide your light under a bushel while in school?

When I was in high school, I was a part of Navigators for a while. One night I was completely surprised to see this one guy come to the meeting - a guy I grew up with whom I remembered being mean to me in younger years and who had a bit of a rebellious attitude. It turns out he was there because one of our leaders, who was also a coach for the sports team this guy was a part of, led this guy to the Lord earlier while they were out running together. (This was back in the 80's).

Would you have rather the teacher/coach had kept his Chrisitanity to himself and let the student continue on his way to Hell?

What would Jesus say?

For every story like that...there is a story like Believers. Or a story like mine...My daughter came home from school with a red dot on her forehead between her eyes. When I asked her about it she told me it was a bindi that helped her focus. I tried to remain calm and asked her how, and why she was wearing it. She told me one of her teachers had told her about it and that it "really does help me Dad!" Turns out this teacher had given her all kinds of info. We talked about it and I explained to my daughter the dangers of that type of religion. I then called the school and went nuts! About four weeks later I found my daughter reading a book about Hinduism. I freaked out. Turns out she had gotten it in the library and she admitted that she still had curiousity about the religion.

All because a teacher stepped OUTSIDE of the boundaries of their position.

What would Jesus say? He said it repeatedly...if you want to spread the gospel, if you want to be a fisher of men...then put down your nets, give up your jobs, sell all you have and go do that. There are about a hundred different ways to be Christian and show Christ at work without proselytizing.

[nikki1]

Blessings, Axxman

Free speech and freedom of religion, guaranteed under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, does not stop just because one is "at work."

The First Amendment of the Bill of Rights states: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

As long as there are freedom loving Americans who spend their lives upholding the rights given them under the American Constitution, this guaranteed right will remain inspite of the ACLU and left activist judges who legislate from the bench in an attempt to remove this very basic right from the American way of life.

Under the First Amendment, Christians are free to talk about Jesus and their faith in any public place and at work as long as it is not interferring with their work.

There are about a hundred different ways to be Christian and show Christ at work without proselytizing.

But even the pagens and unbelievers do good works and many other things in their own name, and a person is not saved by works but by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross, so unless it is done in the spirit of Christ, it is only a self righteous act and really does nothing to bring the lost to Christ, which we as Christians are called to do.

What would Jesus say? He said it repeatedly...if you want to spread the gospel, if you want to be a fisher of men...then put down your nets, give up your jobs, sell all you have and go do that.

But did Jesus give us the option to not tell others about him? Even if you are at work?

He said:

For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

[nebula]

What would Jesus say? He said it repeatedly...if you want to spread the gospel, if you want to be a fisher of men...then put down your nets, give up your jobs, sell all you have and go do that. There are about a hundred different ways to be Christian and show Christ at work without proselytizing.

You make it sound like the teacher sinned by leading the student to Christ while on the job.

[Believer1997]

What would Jesus say? He said it repeatedly...if you want to spread the gospel, if you want to be a fisher of men...then put down your nets, give up your jobs, sell all you have and go do that. There are about a hundred different ways to be Christian and show Christ at work without proselytizing.

You make it sound like the teacher sinned by leading the student to Christ while on the job.

I don't think he made it sound that way - really. I think he, like I once was, faced with raising children in a public system was watchful over what they were 'gleaning' from teachers that we didn't know as well as some. If your child were being taught by a JW and coming home with ideas from that person - you'd be concerned. If your child were in school all day with a Muslim teacher and started coming home with even stranger ideas - you would also be concerned. Teachers can pray without a lot of dramatics - anyone can. But unless my child is in a Christian school of my choosing - and I have seen the Christian curriculum they will offer, I do not want or expect religion in their classes. That is my job. I think they need to stick to authorized curriculum. imo.

[MorningGlory]

What would Jesus say? He said it repeatedly...if you want to spread the gospel, if you want to be a fisher of men...then put down your nets, give up your jobs, sell all you have and go do that. There are about a hundred different ways to be Christian and show Christ at work without proselytizing.

You make it sound like the teacher sinned by leading the student to Christ while on the job.

I don't think he made it sound that way - really. I think he, like I once was, faced with raising children in a public system was watchful over what they were 'gleaning' from teachers that we didn't know as well as some. If your child were being taught by a JW and coming home with ideas from that person - you'd be concerned. If your child were in school all day with a Muslim teacher and started coming home with even stranger ideas - you would also be concerned. Teachers can pray without a lot of dramatics - anyone can. But unless my child is in a Christian school of my choosing - and I have seen the Christian curriculum they will offer, I do not want or expect religion in their classes. That is my job. I think they need to stick to authorized curriculum. imo.

This is so true; because a teacher is Christian doesn't mean they will impart your beliefs to your child. There are many Christians who don't follow sound doctrine. I wanted to know what was going into my kid's heads whether it was a teacher's religious views or their political leaning. I don't believe ANY religious instruction, Christian or otherwise, belongs in public schools (or any political views either.)

[Axxman]

Free speech and freedom of religion, guaranteed under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, does not stop just because one is "at work."

As long as there are freedom loving Americans who spend their lives upholding the rights given them under the American Constitution, this guaranteed right will remain inspite of the ACLU and left activist judges who legislate from the bench in an attempt to remove this very basic right from the American way of life.

Soooo...you support polygamy, human sacrifice, and drug use? All of those are religious expressions. Furthermore, you support polygamy, human sacrifice, and drug use while at work because, according to you, freedom of religion does not stop because one is "at work."

Under the First Amendment, Christians are free to talk about Jesus and their faith in any public place and at work as long as it is not interferring with their work.

If you keep reading the constitution past #1 and #2, you will come across something called the 14th amendment. You see, the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits discrimination, including on the basis of religion. You see, if you are working for the taxpayers in an official capacity and you start praying to your diety...it is legally discriminatory to not pray to the diety of everyone else.

How is this? Well, you see this brings us back to the First Amendment. Thomas Jefferson said that it erected a "wall of separation between church and state." James Madison (wrote the First Amendment) wrote that the First Amendment " "strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States." In other words, if you hold a public position that is funded by the money of ALL taxpayers...then you must separate that from your religion.

But even the pagens and unbelievers do good works and many other things in their own name, and a person is not saved by works but by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross, so unless it is done in the spirit of Christ, it is only a self righteous act and really does nothing to bring the lost to Christ, which we as Christians are called to do.

What are you talking about? What does this have to do with salvation by works? All I said was, that there are ways to show your faith and I get a lecture on salvation by works? You do not have to overtly throw Christianity in someones face to show them the love of Christ...or to show them how Christ works in you.

But did Jesus give us the option to not tell others about him? Even if you are at work?

He said:

For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

What does being ashamed have to do with it? No one is ashamed. You keep trying to turn an ethical legal situation into "Who's a better Christian." Any parent who would randomly accept any random teacher exposing their children to whatever religious beliefs or ideologies they have...is a fool.

Its like some of you had perfect conservative Christian teachers all through school and are completely oblivious to the types of people that are teaching kids nowadays.

[Believer1997]

Free speech and freedom of religion, guaranteed under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, does not stop just because one is "at work."

As long as there are freedom loving Americans who spend their lives upholding the rights given them under the American Constitution, this guaranteed right will remain inspite of the ACLU and left activist judges who legislate from the bench in an attempt to remove this very basic right from the American way of life.

Soooo...you support polygamy, human sacrifice, and drug use? All of those are religious expressions. Furthermore, you support polygamy, human sacrifice, and drug use while at work because, according to you, freedom of religion does not stop because one is "at work."

Under the First Amendment, Christians are free to talk about Jesus and their faith in any public place and at work as long as it is not interferring with their work.

If you keep reading the constitution past #1 and #2, you will come across something called the 14th amendment. You see, the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits discrimination, including on the basis of religion. You see, if you are working for the taxpayers in an official capacity and you start praying to your diety...it is legally discriminatory to not pray to the diety of everyone else.

How is this? Well, you see this brings us back to the First Amendment. Thomas Jefferson said that it erected a "wall of separation between church and state." James Madison (wrote the First Amendment) wrote that the First Amendment " "strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States." In other words, if you hold a public position that is funded by the money of ALL taxpayers...then you must separate that from your religion.

But even the pagens and unbelievers do good works and many other things in their own name, and a person is not saved by works but by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross, so unless it is done in the spirit of Christ, it is only a self righteous act and really does nothing to bring the lost to Christ, which we as Christians are called to do.

What are you talking about? What does this have to do with salvation by works? All I said was, that there are ways to show your faith and I get a lecture on salvation by works? You do not have to overtly throw Christianity in someones face to show them the love of Christ...or to show them how Christ works in you.

But did Jesus give us the option to not tell others about him? Even if you are at work?

He said:

For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

What does being ashamed have to do with it? No one is ashamed. You keep trying to turn an ethical legal situation into "Who's a better Christian." Any parent who would randomly accept any random teacher exposing their children to whatever religious beliefs or ideologies they have...is a fool.

Its like some of you had perfect conservative Christian teachers all through school and are completely oblivious to the types of people that are teaching kids nowadays.

I agree, Axxman. If people who have children in the 'system' could, without any issue, trust everything that came out of a teacher's mouth - it would be a perfect world. People who haven't had kids in a system that is rampant with teachers of many religions and NO religion (agnostics, atheists) and who are socialists, communists and some odd 'free thinkers', etc. I think they may feel differently. The days of Beaver Cleaver's teacher are gone - over.... That said, my kids had some fine teachers from whom they did learn a great deal of important knowledge and life lessons -but like any other public school system - we had to weed out some duds.

[Ovedya]

If you keep reading the constitution past #1 and #2, you will come across something called the 14th amendment. You see, the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits discrimination, including on the basis of religion. You see, if you are working for the taxpayers in an official capacity and you start praying to your diety...it is legally discriminatory to not pray to the diety of everyone else.

You must not be a Constitutional lawyer, because that is a complete absurdity to the 14th Amendment. The 14th Amendment prohibits states from passing or enforcing any law which, "shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Nowhere in the 14th Amendment, or the Constitution, is there language which prohibits a person in public office from the expression of his or her faith at any time. Nor is there any provision which renders such expression discriminatory simply in the exclusion of other religions by that expression. In other words, if I were a Senator, teacher, or employee of the state in which I reside, I may freely wear a cross around my neck as an expression of my faith. How absurd to think that, because I'm not wearing a star of David or an upside down pentagram, that I am discriminating against Judaism or Satanism.

How is this? Well, you see this brings us back to the First Amendment. Thomas Jefferson said that it erected a "wall of separation between church and state." James Madison (wrote the First Amendment) wrote that the First Amendment " "strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States." In other words, if you hold a public position that is funded by the money of ALL taxpayers...then you must separate that from your religion.

Ah, "the wall" argument. Thomas Jefferson did not offer an in-depth expository regarding "the wall of separation of church and state." This phrase came from a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association who asked Jefferson specifically the powers that the state has over the church, due to a local issue of their state's intervention in their own affairs. Jefferson's simple explanation was essentially, "none." It had nothing - nothing - to do with whether the expression of religion was or was not prohibited in the realm of the state.

As for Madison, the entire quote is, "Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history." (emphasis added). This statement simply reflects the purpose of the Establishment Clause in preventing the "encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies," in other words, a State-sponsored religion, like that which the Puritans sought to escape in England. This is Madison simply saying, "We don't want another Anglican church telling government how to run the country. This is evidenced in a number of statement by Madison, in fact:

"Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform (Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731)

and,

"If the Church of England had been the established and general religion and all the northern colonies as it has been among us here and uninterrupted tranquility had prevailed throughout the continent, it is clear to me that slavery and subjection might and would have been gradually insulated among us. Union of religious sentiments begets a surprising confidence and ecclesiastical establishments tend to grate ignorance and corruption all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects (Letter to William Bradford, Jan. 24, 1774)."

It was clearly never intended by Madison to say that those holding public office, those who make and support our laws, could not allow their faith in God to properly direct them in what is right, true and fair.

[nikki1]

Blessings, Axxman

Soooo...you support polygamy, human sacrifice, and drug use?

No

All of those are religious expressions. Furthermore, you support polygamy, human sacrifice, and drug use while at work because, according to you, freedom of religion does not stop because one is "at work."

hmmm.. What Bible are you reading, Axxman?

But let's just say that your Bible supports all of those things as "religious expressions... "

That gives my Bible, the true Word of God and my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, as much right under the equal access laws to be spoken of in public places. Thank you for substantiating my point.

If you keep reading the constitution You see, the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits discrimination, including on the basis of religion.

Well, obviously, it appears to me that Bible believing Christians are being discriminated against in the OP.

You see, if you are working for the taxpayers in an official capacity and you start praying to your diety...it is legally discriminatory to not pray to the diety of everyone else.

I don't know about that, but I do know the First Amendment is still in effect.

How is this? Well, you see this brings us back to the First Amendment. Thomas Jefferson said that it erected a "wall of separation between church and state." James Madison (wrote the First Amendment) wrote that the First Amendment " "strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States." In other words, if you hold a public position that is funded by the money of ALL taxpayers...then you must separate that from your religion.

The separation of church and state myth is no where in the American Constitution. The First Amendment was written into the Constitution to keep the government from interferring with the people's right to worship God and Jesus Christ during a time when the people had broken away from the dictatorial King and State run Church of England, and the founding fathers had the foresight to include it to protect all future generations from Christian religious tyranny.

You need to read and study the American Revolutionay War history.

What are you talking about? What does this have to do with salvation by works? All I said was, that there are ways to show your faith and I get a lecture on salvation by works? You do not have to overtly throw Christianity in someones face to show them the love of Christ...or to show them how Christ works in you.

I know what you said, Axxman. How can one show his faith in Christ by doing good works when even athesists do good works and don't believe in God? How is sharing your love for and faith in Christ by "using words" throwing Christianity in someone's face? I don't understand your logic.

What does being ashamed have to do with it? No one is ashamed.

Why would you want to hide your faith in Jesus by not verbally telling others of your faith in Him if you are not ashamed?

you did say...

There are about a hundred different ways to be Christian and show Christ at work without proselytizing.

You keep trying to turn an ethical legal situation into "Who's a better Christian."

I do??? Where did I do that? I don't think it has anything to do with who's a better Christian, but rather what the Bible and the First Amendment says. Which is what this topic is about.

Any parent who would randomly accept any random teacher exposing their children to whatever religious beliefs or ideologies they have...is a fool.

I agree; that's why parents today need to monitor on a daily basis what their children are being exposed to while away at school. But I doubt the OP is about false religious teachings as Liberty Counsel is an exceptional and highly recognized Constitutional legal authority who has been defending the rights of Bible believing Christians who are discriminated against under the First Amendment in all walks of life in America for years.

[nebula]

Soooo...you support polygamy, human sacrifice, and drug use? All of those are religious expressions.

It might help your argument if you didn't use examples of things that are considered illegal in this country.

You see, the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits discrimination, including on the basis of religion.

You see, if you are working for the taxpayers in an official capacity and you start praying to your diety...it is legally discriminatory to not pray to the diety of everyone else.

This is what I don't get. The idea that a person expressing their faith is "discrimination."

That's like saying a teacher can't wear paraphernalia of their favorite sport team because it's "discriminatory" against students who favor a different team.

How is this? Well, you see this brings us back to the First Amendment. Thomas Jefferson said that it erected a "wall of separation between church and state." James Madison (wrote the First Amendment) wrote that the First Amendment " "strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States." In other words, if you hold a public position that is funded by the money of ALL taxpayers...then you must separate that from your religion.

What Ovedya said.

Any parent who would randomly accept any random teacher exposing their children to whatever religious beliefs or ideologies they have...is a fool.

Its like some of you had perfect conservative Christian teachers all through school and are completely oblivious to the types of people that are teaching kids nowadays.

And why does everyone assume kids are dumb sheep?

Kids are going to believe and follow whatever they want to.

I didn't believe evolution because my teachers told me to; so why is everyone convinced kids will follow a teacher's religious expression just because the teacher exposes it to them? It takes much more than the words and influence of one teacher to sway a child.

I know because I was harrassed by my fellow students for my religious expression of faith in and love for Jesus while I was in elementary school! Do you think some teacher praying in the hallway would cause these kids to have changed their minds about Jesus? Ha! They just would have laughed at the teacher behind his/her back.