Teachers forced to 'hide in closets' to pray

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Dec 22 2009, 05:12 PM)

Is it too much to ask YOU to back up your claims with the link to the specific ruling that applies to the OP??? You claim to "know" things, but then when asked to provide your source, you act like it is up to everyone ELSE to produce the source. That is a rather backwards approach to a debate. If you have a source, then provide it. You are responsible for the assertions YOU make and that includes the responsibility to provide adequate support for those assertions if you are setting forth those assertions as established fact.

Honestly...yeah, it is too much for any of you to ask me for anything.

Well I guess when you can't really shore up your assertion, then it would be too much to ask of you.

You are wrong...and at this point I think you are aware of that. I HIGHLY doubt that you've gone all this time without looking up the cases I referenced for you...

I did not ask you about those cases. I asked for a specific link to a specific Supreme Court ruling you said exists. You are going to great lengths to provide links to anything and everything EXCEPT what was asked for, which indicates that your claim was false, and you don't possess the courage to admit your mistake.

No one was precluded from praying in private, or with like-minded individuals. You keep saying that, but it is not factual.

So, you are saying the OP just made up a bunch of things that never happened??? Is that your position???

I've already posted the court order...and so has Nikki...I don't see how you can apply that order to praying privately by yourself, or in private with another person. The order specifically refers to school sponsored functions.

Yeah, yeah... court order... blah, blah, blah... Nothing in the OP suggests that the teachers were engaging in promoting religion at school sponsored functions. So why don't you tell us where we can get an accurate record of the events that transpired???

The school was actively involved in promoting Christianity and its values to its students...

And you know this because...?

You do realize that you couldn't get a straight vote on "who" the God of the Bible is.

that is not true. In fact, the world makes it very clear on TV and the print media that they consider the God of the Bible to very cruel and contradictory God.

I seriously doubt that you could get a straight vote about who "God of the bible" is on this website...

Only in your imagination. You seem to like to assign your subjective values on everyone else and then argue from those values as if they are fact. It seems that all you can do is put your spin on what other people say instead of trying to correctly frame their position and argue from there.

[nebula]

Its also obvious that you are not going to answer my questions...which in a way is fitting.

I have a hard time putting into words what is in my heart often. This has been one of those cases.

I feel no more threatened by a teacher testifying to Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. than I feel threatened by the humanism/atheism/anti-Christian testifying that went on when I was a student.

If you aren't afraid of the godless (and God-less) propoganda going on in school, why should you be afraid of the Hindu?

It's all the same. The atheist and the agnostics are on their way to the same place as the Hindu, so what does one official religion matter against the unofficial religion?

If students are swayed from Christianity by a teacher it is only because their hearts were already turned away. And if wasn't a Hindu teacher, it could just has easily have been the Neo-pagan classmate.

Any student who has a walking relationship with the Father through the Son is not going to be swayed by the Hindu teacher propogating her beliefs than the atheistic/agnostic teacher propogating his beliefs. In fact, the atheism/agnosticism is worse in my opinion because it is so subtle and so much easier to compromise to. That's why there are so may people who can claim to be Christian yet believe the Bible is fallible.

The only enemy more dangerous than the one you can see is the one you cannot see. At least a teacher claiming religion is visible. The atheism/agnosticism is not quite so visible, yet it is so far reaching and erroding to our faith.

So, no, I have no problems with teachers of other religions talking about their faith in the classroom, praying, etc.

Because this will separate the wheat from the shaff. The true Christians will stand strong to their faith while the "Sunday Christians" will be counted where they belong and no longer confuse the name of Christ with worldliness.

Jesus is looking for a pure Bride, and it takes trial and fire for the Bride to be purified. In-your-face religion will do this better than the slow poisoning of humanism/atheism/agnosticism.

I also enjoy the fact that it drives you guys crazy that I enjoy the company of the boogeyman...lol.

One of my current co-workers is Muslim. S co-worker at a previous job was Muslim.

Your company is fine. I'm just wondering what influence they are having on you.

I'm not exactly sure why I would call you a dhimmi...you are not a dhimmi by definition as you are not under Islamic rule. You also do not have fewer legal or social rights than a Muslim. My muslims friends would laugh at your imagined religious persecution by calling yourself a dhimmi.

So you already know what a dhimmi is? Interesting. . . .

I just found out about it in a book I'm reading, where a couple pages talked about it. (Which is why I apparently misrepresented the term.)

Clearly, we are not going to see eye to eye on this because you think teachers should be allowed to "testify" whenever or wherever they want to students...I totally disagree.

As mentioned above, anti-Jesus philosophy is already preached at school, but it's not called such. (Even in classes where Chirstianity is taught from a historical perspective, they completely misrepresented the core of what Christians believe.) Evolution is "testified" to. Humanism (the religion of man - the original lie of Satan - that man can be "god") is "testified" to. Earth-wirshi (though not called that) is "testified" to. So what if "Hinduism" is testified to as well?

[Axxman]

Merry Christmas!!!

As a matter of information for you, Axxman, I didn't get this information from the OP. And yes, two teachers were sued. According to my source, the two teachers at Pace High School were Principal Frank Lay and school teacher Michelle Winkler.

I don't care where you are getting your false info...you told me to read the OP again, and the stuff you are saying isn't in the OP...lol.

Frank Lay is a Principal...he has administrative responsibilities. He is in charge of planning, management, operation, and evaluation of the educational program of the school to which he is assigned. He could, if it were necessary, fulfill the role of a teacher...but it is not his title or job description.

Michelle Winkler is an Clerical Assistant for the School District. I haven't seen any evidence at all that she is, or has ever served in the role of a school teacher.

Pace High School is in the jurisdiction of Santa Rosa County, and is governed by the Santa Rosa School Board...it is all the same case...lol.

You finally figured that out I see.

Hold up...don't pull none of this disengenuious switcheroo stuff with me...YOU are the one who keeps referencing Pace High School as if it were a different case. It has been like pulling teeth trying to show you that they are one in the same.

Basically, you are saying what I already pointed out... , more than once. using different words. I'm glad you are beginning to finally figure out what is going on. Kudos to ya! However, the only reason that the principal and teacher at Pace High School consented to alleged guilt was as I said... he never had proper representation protecting his "individual" Constitutional rights. This is where the ACLU overstepped the principal's (who is also a teacher) Constitutional rights, and tried to pull one over on him.

LOL...now you are claiming that I am agreeing with you? Just with different words? Too funny! You're still calling the clerical assistant who works for the district a school teacher...and you are passing it off like I've been confused?!?! Its basic dishonesty. Furthermore...the "teacher" who is actually a clerical assistant NEVER consented guilt at all. She was found in contempt of court (not sued) and she won the case. Also the ACLU didn't force the admission of guilt...the principal could have fought that. They admitted guilt, via their legal representation, of their own freewill.

Unlike you, I have nothing to hide. And if I am wrong on something, I will admit it. But so far, I have not been wrong on what I have said.

I never accused you of hiding anything. I have accused you of being wrong on several points...and you continue to be. So much for admitting when you are.

You, on the otherhand, are just catching on to what has transpired and are only repeating now what I have already posted more than once in this thread.

Again...blatant dishonesty.

All of my posts and threads started on this forum show links to articles I use; so I am sure you are aware that it is not a matter of not being able to type in a court case to find it; but rather your refusal to use proper posting etiquette and courtesy even after being asked several times by more than one poster in this thread to post a direct link to your source. I will be reviewing the case you posted in order to substantiate what you said:

Egads...the horror....doing your own research, using the tools and information handed to you on a silver platter, and even pointed in the right direction. In light of your dedication to furthering your knowledge i will grant you two links...link #1... or use...link #2. Enjoy!

without even reading it all, I highly doubt it. If I am wrong, I will say so. It's a very, very long read; since you have already reviewed it, please post the segment where the fourteenth amendment is specified in the case as I have posted pertinent sections for you in my posts. Or, if you find that to be too difficult, then please indicate which section your reference to the fourteenth amendment is listed in. Thank you in advance.

I have already reviewed it. I've reviewed every aspect of this case. Which is why it is patent dishonesty for you to be pretending and implying that I am merely mimicking your thoughts, or that I'm barely catching up on what has transpired in this case. You mock and cast false accusations under the guise of your "blessings" and then complain when the very person you mock doesn't want to hold your hand and make things easy for you.

[Axxman]

Well I guess when you can't really shore up your assertion, then it would be too much to ask of you.

My assertions have been shored up a long time ago...i don't know where you've been. I presented an ample amount of evidence. I've drawn you a map, given you a compass, and pointed you in the right direction. It is not my fault you refuse to walk the trail.

I did not ask you about those cases. I asked for a specific link to a specific Supreme Court ruling you said exists. You are going to great lengths to provide links to anything and everything EXCEPT what was asked for, which indicates that your claim was false, and you don't possess the courage to admit your mistake.

Okay...I detect a significant amount of backtracking here...but I'll bite. What exactly are you asking for? Those cases were presented as evidence that the 14th amendment is routinely used in religious discrimination cases because you and others were not previously aware of that fact. I was told that it was a "complete absurdity to the 14th amendment" for me to say that "the 14th Amendment prohibits discrimination, including on the basis of religion." All of the cases and info I have provided have been a direct attempt to show the connection. I don't recall that you ever asked me for a specific link to a specific case outside of that distinction. In fact, your first post on this thread was bragging on your wiki-skills...in your second post you accused me of not being able to produce a "specific ruling"... which by any logical standard had to be associated with Ovedya's assertion that the 14th amendment did not deal with religious discrimination. I then provided multiple "specific rulings" in "specific cases" that made that connection. Ovedya wisely dropped the topic...you merely are starting to act like we having a different discussion instead of admitting that I provided everything that was asked for. Speaking of a lack of courage...

No one was precluded from praying in private, or with like-minded individuals. You keep saying that, but it is not factual.

So, you are saying the OP just made up a bunch of things that never happened??? Is that your position???

No...my position is that the OP doesn't say that at all! Hellooooo! The whole premise of the article is that teachers are being forced to pray in private (i.e. "hide in closets"). In fact...Michelle Winkler, who faced contempt charges, was cleared primarily because it was determined that it was not wrong for her to attend a school function, write a prayer, show agreement with the prayer, even in the presence of students...because it was privately funded. The ACLU supports the rights of teachers and other school staff to exercise their religious beliefs, provided that they do so in their personal, rather than official, capacities and in a manner that does not affiliate their beliefs with the school. Thats what this case is about.

Yeah, yeah... court order... blah, blah, blah... Nothing in the OP suggests that the teachers were engaging in promoting religion at school sponsored functions. So why don't you tell us where we can get an accurate record of the events that transpired???

LOL...you "blah,blah,blah" the court order? Yes, clearly the facts are highly important to you. "Nothing in the OP suggests"....Thats because the OP doesn't tell you that the defendants admitted guilt to the accusation that the school and teachers were required to promote Christianity! This is where the OP falls short...it is biased and one-sided. However, you can read the complaint, which they admitted guilt to, here...

And you know this because...?

Because they admitted guilt...and because they were required to do so in their official capacity as teachers. Am I seriously the only person who looks this stuff up.

You seem to like to assign your subjective values on everyone else and then argue from those values as if they are fact. It seems that all you can do is put your spin on what other people say instead of trying to correctly frame their position and argue from there.

It would help if people could correctly frame their own positions based on facts. It just doesn't seem fair to make me provide all the facts, answer all the questions, point you in all the right directions...and then i have to frame your position?? I'll try to help you frame your position...but I'm not gonna do it for you. And if your frame is crooked, I'll point it out to you...

[Axxman]

I have a hard time putting into words what is in my heart often. This has been one of those cases.

I feel no more threatened by a teacher testifying to Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. than I feel threatened by the humanism/atheism/anti-Christian testifying that went on when I was a student.

If you aren't afraid of the godless (and God-less) propoganda going on in school, why should you be afraid of the Hindu?

It's all the same. The atheist and the agnostics are on their way to the same place as the Hindu, so what does one official religion matter against the unofficial religion?

If students are swayed from Christianity by a teacher it is only because their hearts were already turned away. And if wasn't a Hindu teacher, it could just has easily have been the Neo-pagan classmate.

Any student who has a walking relationship with the Father through the Son is not going to be swayed by the Hindu teacher propogating her beliefs than the atheistic/agnostic teacher propogating his beliefs. In fact, the atheism/agnosticism is worse in my opinion because it is so subtle and so much easier to compromise to. That's why there are so may people who can claim to be Christian yet believe the Bible is fallible.

The only enemy more dangerous than the one you can see is the one you cannot see. At least a teacher claiming religion is visible. The atheism/agnosticism is not quite so visible, yet it is so far reaching and erroding to our faith.

So, no, I have no problems with teachers of other religions talking about their faith in the classroom, praying, etc.

Because this will separate the wheat from the shaff. The true Christians will stand strong to their faith while the "Sunday Christians" will be counted where they belong and no longer confuse the name of Christ with worldliness.

You can't possibly have children in school... What you are saying is tantamount to direliction of duty. I am not afraid of pedophiles...i wouldn't let one have access to my child for 6-8 hours a day! Its not about being afraid...its about the common sense role of a parent. I don't want a muslim teaching my child about religion any more than I want Al Gore teaching my kid about the environment. Its my job as a parent to ensure that they are protected from that.

One of my current co-workers is Muslim. S co-worker at a previous job was Muslim.

Your company is fine. I'm just wondering what influence they are having on you.

I wonder what influence I am having on them....

I wonder if your co-worker knows how you really feel....

So you already know what a dhimmi is? Interesting. . . .

I just found out about it in a book I'm reading, where a couple pages talked about it. (Which is why I apparently misrepresented the term.)

lol

As mentioned above, anti-Jesus philosophy is already preached at school, but it's not called such. (Even in classes where Chirstianity is taught from a historical perspective, they completely misrepresented the core of what Christians believe.) Evolution is "testified" to. Humanism (the religion of man - the original lie of Satan - that man can be "god") is "testified" to. Earth-wirshi (though not called that) is "testified" to. So what if "Hinduism" is testified to as well?

Ironically...they misrepresent the core of what many religions believe. I know that Christians in America have it hard..but other religions get kicked around a bit too. Evolution and environmentalism are not religions...they are pseudo-science. Humanism is not a religion...it is a philosophy. Hinduism is a religion. I would PREFER that none of them be taught to my kids...but the Constitution only speaks to ONE of them.

[nikki1]

Axxman

I never accused you of hiding anything.

I never said you did

I have accused you of being wrong on several points...and you continue to be. So much for admitting when you are.

Accusations mean nothing when you can't prove them.

Again...blatant dishonesty.

When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other. Nice quote you took from shiloh 357, Axxman.

I don't care where you are getting your false info...you told me to read the OP again, and the stuff you are saying isn't in the OP...lol.

False information? ? Who's talking about the OP ? I never said it was in the OP. In fact, I told you it wasn't. Please go back and read my last post to you again.

Michelle Winkler is an Clerical Assistant for the School District. I haven't seen any evidence at all that she is, or has ever served in the role of a school teacher.

Keep looking. Seek and ye shall find.

LOL...now you are claiming that I am agreeing with you? Just with different words? Too funny! You're still calling the clerical assistant who works for the district a school teacher...and you are passing it off like I've been confused?!?! Its basic dishonesty. Furthermore...the "teacher" who is actually a clerical assistant NEVER consented guilt at all. She was found in contempt of court (not sued) and she won the case. Also the ACLU didn't force the admission of guilt...the principal could have fought that. They admitted guilt, via their legal representation, of their own freewill.

From your comments,I take it it's not necessary for you to understand things in order to discuss or talk about them.

It has been like pulling teeth trying to show you that they are one in the same.

huh? ?

After all the information I put up, and you are finally just now understanding that Pace and Santa Rosa are one in the same and now you still expect me to know everything? Good grief, Axxman.

You mock and cast false accusations under the guise of your "blessings" and then complain when the very person you mock doesn't want to hold your hand and make things easy for you.

You need to chill, Axxman and not be so cynical. If you find it hard to laugh at yourself, as I once did, I would be happy to do it for you.

I don't recall complaining to you or mocking you? I think it's just a misunderstanding on your part. But I will say your cynical attitude shown in this statement doesn't help your position any.

Its basic dishonesty. Furthermore...the "teacher" who is actually a clerical assistant NEVER consented guilt at all. She was found in contempt of court (not sued) and she won the case. Also the ACLU didn't force the admission of guilt...the principal could have fought that. They admitted guilt, via their legal representation, of their own freewill.

If you say so, Axxman. But you have made many assertions that you can't substantiate and prove.

Blessings to you,

[nebula]

I have a hard time putting into words what is in my heart often. This has been one of those cases.

I feel no more threatened by a teacher testifying to Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. than I feel threatened by the humanism/atheism/anti-Christian testifying that went on when I was a student.

If you aren't afraid of the godless (and God-less) propoganda going on in school, why should you be afraid of the Hindu?

It's all the same. The atheist and the agnostics are on their way to the same place as the Hindu, so what does one official religion matter against the unofficial religion?

If students are swayed from Christianity by a teacher it is only because their hearts were already turned away. And if wasn't a Hindu teacher, it could just has easily have been the Neo-pagan classmate.

Any student who has a walking relationship with the Father through the Son is not going to be swayed by the Hindu teacher propogating her beliefs than the atheistic/agnostic teacher propogating his beliefs. In fact, the atheism/agnosticism is worse in my opinion because it is so subtle and so much easier to compromise to. That's why there are so may people who can claim to be Christian yet believe the Bible is fallible.

The only enemy more dangerous than the one you can see is the one you cannot see. At least a teacher claiming religion is visible. The atheism/agnosticism is not quite so visible, yet it is so far reaching and erroding to our faith.

So, no, I have no problems with teachers of other religions talking about their faith in the classroom, praying, etc.

Because this will separate the wheat from the shaff. The true Christians will stand strong to their faith while the "Sunday Christians" will be counted where they belong and no longer confuse the name of Christ with worldliness.

You can't possibly have children in school... What you are saying is tantamount to direliction of duty. I am not afraid of pedophiles...i wouldn't let one have access to my child for 6-8 hours a day!

Pedophiles?

Who ever said anything about pedophiles?

Talk about pulling stuff out of the hat!

Its not about being afraid...its about the common sense role of a parent. I don't want a muslim teaching my child about religion any more than I want Al Gore teaching my kid about the environment. Its my job as a parent to ensure that they are protected from that.

They are already teaching Al Gore stuff about the environment in school.

If you are going to complain about relition, you need to start complaining about the anti-religion and enviro-wackism that is promoted in schools.

That's my point!

[Axxman]

Pedophiles?

Who ever said anything about pedophiles?

Talk about pulling stuff out of the hat!

I'm pretty sure you get the point.

They are already teaching Al Gore stuff about the environment in school.

If you are going to complain about relition, you need to start complaining about the anti-religion and enviro-wackism that is promoted in schools.

That's my point!

LOL...you think I don't complain? Trust me...I'm "that" parent at the school. I'm on top of everything that my kids are told in school...at least i try to be. Saturday morning breakfast is basically a weekly debriefing for me and the kids. You'd be amazed at the stuff they are exposed to. The one thing I shouldn't have to worry about is religion being promoted, sponsored or coerced by a taxpayer supported school.

If i discoverd that my kids public school had a policy to embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every (insert religion here) virtue...I would fight like a madman to change that policy.

[Axxman]

Accusations mean nothing when you can't prove them.

So what is your excuse?

When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other. Nice quote you took from shiloh 357, Axxman.

I apologize...I didn't realize that Shiloh had accused you of being dishonest in your tactics as well.

False information? ? Who's talking about the OP ? I never said it was in the OP. In fact, I told you it wasn't. Please go back and read my last post to you again.

ummmm....your comments...

...Christians are being discriminated against in the OP.

But I doubt the OP is about false religious teachings...

You need to read the OP again...

If its not in the OP and you are not talking about the OP...they why are you telling me to read the OP again?!?!

From your comments,I take it it's not necessary for you to understand things in order to discuss or talk about them.

Again...thats a blatant misrepresentation of me and the convo we are having.

After all the information I put up, and you are finally just now understanding that Pace and Santa Rosa are one in the same and now you still expect me to know everything? Good grief, Axxman.

Here is info you have put up...

The article very clearly points this out when this all started, this very same thing occured at Pace High School in Florida, and the judge ruled in favor of the principal and the students according to the article...

Two teachers were sued.

...school teacher Michelle Winkler.

the principal and teacher at Pace High School consented to alleged guilt was as I said...

Besides all of this "info" being 100% factually incorrect...it is incorrect to say "this same thing happened..." as if it is a different event. Now either you used very poor grammar and caused confusion...or you didn't know they were one in the same. Either way...you've said several times that if you are wrong you will admit it. Nows a good time to put that claim into practice.

It is not my intent to say that everything you said was false...post #51 in this thread was particularly good.

If you say so, Axxman. But you have made many assertions that you can't substantiate and prove.

Actually, all of my assertions are just that...assertions. I have read and studied the issue and am very confident in those assertions. I have explained how I arrived at those assertions. I have told you how to verify those assertions for yourself... it is up to you to substantiate (read: verify) the evidence provided.

Somebody says: "Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life."

You say: "Where does the bible say that?"

They post: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. John 14:6

You say: Gimme a link

They Say: Look it up...its right there...John 14:6

You say: You must have something to hide if you won't link it

They say: Okay...go here... and look it up.

You say: Oh no...link me to the specific verse. You clearly are hiding something.

They say: I told you the verse and told you were to find it...look it up.

You say: If you can't give me the link I want then as far as I am concerned, I think you just want to argue without providing any evidence to support what you are saying, and I'm not going to play your game.

I say: whatever.....

[MorningGlory]

Somebody says: "Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life."

You say: "Where does the bible say that?"

They post: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. John 14:6

You say: Gimme a link

They Say: Look it up...its right there...John 14:6

You say: You must have something to hide if you won't link it

They say: Okay...go here... and look it up.

You say: Oh no...link me to the specific verse. You clearly are hiding something.

They say: I told you the verse and told you were to find it...look it up.

You say: If you can't give me the link I want then as far as I am concerned, I think you just want to argue without providing any evidence to support what you are saying, and I'm not going to play your game.

I say: whatever.....

Sounds like dinner with one of my relatives!