Following OT Law

[KC02]

Will you refute Pauls inspired advice to gentile christians of only two laws, that they abstain from sexual immorality and the meat of strangled creatures ?

These are the two "commandments" Paul gave. Anything else is Judaizing. As Christians we need to reject it in no uncertain terms. If some Jewish people in the 1st century wanted to continue to observe holy days and such, that was fine. However to put Christians in bondage to the Law in the 21st century is inexcusable. St. Paul taught that we are not under the law if we are led by the Spirit (born again -- saved)

(John 4:24 [KJV])

God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

[~Shalhevet~]

I just wanted to thank everyone for all your input here. I very much appreciate every opinion offered. May God bless every one of you.

[Guest yod]

i know my LORD and am not troubled by my lack of obedience to laws given to Israel, as they were nation specific and not intended for Christians.

My point was that people are naturally disobedient, whether jewish or otherwise.

Will you refute Pauls inspired advice to gentile christians of only two laws, that they abstain from sexual immorality and the meat of strangled creatures ?

There were actually 4 minimum requirements for the gentile who wished to join the faithful remnant of the people of Israel.

acts 15

It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

3 of those are dietary laws. (And Catholics claim to eat the blood of Christ literally in the Eucharist)

These were the only things "required" because they didn't want to make it difficult on Gentiles and they assumed that the Holy Spirit would convict each person at their own pace since "Moses is read in the synagogue every Sabbath"

The Law has never been made obsolete. The application and method of payment is what has changed. Every single yod and tav has meaning still today. This is why Yeshua says He came to give it fuller meaning.

A Texan driving in China doesn't use the traffic laws of Germany. But there is still a law and it is based on the same principles of safety.

[Guest yod]

Will you refute Pauls inspired advice to gentile christians of only two laws, that they abstain from sexual immorality and the meat of strangled creatures ?

These are the two "commandments" Paul gave. Anything else is Judaizing.

That shows quite a bit of ignorance concerning the Law.

As Christians we need to reject it in no uncertain terms.

REJECT the Word of God? This is but one place where Jesus says otherwise:

21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

St. Paul taught that we are not under the law if we are led by the Spirit (born again -- saved)

That simply isn't correct interpretation of the point. He says we will not be judged under the law if we live by the Spirit. Small but important distinction because the way you translate that sentence causes every other place where Shaul (Paul) speaks about the Law a contradiction of itself

Shaul says that gentiles will instinctively do the things of the Law if the Spirit is in them.

Romans 2:13

for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Romans 2:14

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law.....

Romans 2:15

in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts....

Romans 2:18

and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law....

Romans 2:20

a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth....

Romans 3:31

Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 7:12

So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Romans 7:16

But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

Romans 7:22

For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

Obeying the Law is the opposite of worshiping God in Spirit.

Romans 7:14

For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

Disobedience is what caused the Law. Continued disobedience only causes continued judgement by the Law.

The judgements of the Law are as real as the law of gravity. Most christians are establishing the Law without realizing it. Why they refuse to acknowledge that fact is beyond me.

Shaul says

1 Corinthians 10:23

All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

In other words, you can eat paint and wash it down with gasoline if you wish...but that isn't good for you. The Law will instruct you on which foods God created for eating. The "sin" associated with this has been paid for so you won't have any eternal repercussions of going to hell for disobedience...but that was never the intent of dietary Law in the first place. It had to do with how you care for your flesh...and eating foods that God calls "unclean" are (coincedentally?) not good for your flesh.

Whatever you sow in the flesh, you shall reap in the flesh. Not in the Spirit.

The writer is saying that we can't worship God in ritualistic do's and don'ts.

Your opinion of the Law is at odds with every person who wrote a word in the Bible. It is not a set of ritualistic dos and don'ts. It is the very wisdom of God and we would do well to glean from it.

Since I've had this discussion a hundred times here before, I know how some of you are reading what I just wrote so let me assure you that I have NEVER said that anyone MUST keep the Law in my 20 years as a believer.

What I'm saying is that the church has done a terrible disservice if you view the instruction of God as "bondage". Even worse, many christians have been taught by deception of christian theology that the first 2/3rds of the bible are irrelevant.

This is perhaps the biggest reason there is (and has always been) division in the specifically christian religious institution separated from Israel called "The Church"

And it's also why we are in the Great Apostasy at this time.

[JCISGD]

i know my LORD and am not troubled by my lack of obedience to laws given to Israel, as they were nation specific and not intended for Christians.

My point was that people are naturally disobedient, whether jewish or otherwise.

Will you refute Pauls inspired advice to gentile christians of only two laws, that they abstain from sexual immorality and the meat of strangled creatures ?

There were actually 4 minimum requirements for the gentile who wished to join the faithful remnant of the people of Israel.

acts 15

It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

3 of those are dietary laws. (And Catholics claim to eat the blood of Christ literally in the Eucharist)

These were the only things "required" because they didn't want to make it difficult on Gentiles and they assumed that the Holy Spirit would convict each person at their own pace since "Moses is read in the synagogue every Sabbath"

The Law has never been made obsolete. The application and method of payment is what has changed. Every single yod and tav has meaning still today. This is why Yeshua says He came to give it fuller meaning.

A Texan driving in China doesn't use the traffic laws of Germany. But there is still a law and it is based on the same principles of safety.

You are correct there are just 4 laws from Paul, i was foolishly going from memory and lack of study.

I cant really see how you have refuted what i said and your answers seem unrelated to me. As sinners we are naturally disobedient, but a christian has had a change of heart in repentance and is now naturally obedient. But what has that to do with keeping laws given to Israel? please explain for me.

None of the great preachers of the last 200 yrs have said anything about such things as you talk about, i think God would have corrected them if it were so.

Sorry Yod i just do not believe you are correct and i think you have done as Paul states not to do in Gal 1:6-11 and are in bondage to the law.

[priest4Him]

At the risk of starting a debate (I hope not!!), do you think it is okay for a Christian to follow the laws of the OT...eating clean, observing the feasts, etc.?

I believe that we need to observe the Ten Commandments, the eternal moral laws of God. But the ceremonial law were nail to the cross, like the killing of the lamb etc.

[~Shalhevet~]

I believe that we need to observe the Ten Commandments, the eternal moral laws of God. But the ceremonial law were nail to the cross, like the killing of the lamb etc.

This is what my pastor told me today.

[JCISGD]

I believe that we need to observe the Ten Commandments, the eternal moral laws of God. But the ceremonial law were nail to the cross, like the killing of the lamb etc.

This is what my pastor told me today.

Thats it in a nutshell.

While God can give us cerimonial laws for wisdoms sake, He does not pick and choose what will be moral law, it is law because it is morally right and not because of choice. But it is also true that God encapsulates and enforces all that is morally right and it cannot be otherwise.

[Saved_by_Jesus]

At the risk of starting a debate (I hope not!!), do you think it is okay for a Christian to follow the laws of the OT...eating clean, observing the feasts, etc.?

I've been reading some books about it, and it's rather fascinating. I haven't gotten it all straight in my head yet, but from what I understand, God's commandments (the 10 commandments) should be followed for the simple fact that they are GOD'S laws, and not the Law of Moses, or any other Levitical man-made law that the Pharisees or Saducees came up with AFTER God gave the 10 commandments.

Look at it this way.....what are the two commandments that Jesus says to follow? Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Ok, so where in the Bible does it say to keep those two, yet dump the rest? Nowhere....Jesus mentions about how we are to "keep God's commandments".....NOT the extra man-made laws that went along with the Law of Moses.

About the Feasts. I try to keep them myself, because if you read Leviticus 23, they all say that they are to be kept FOREVER....for ALL generations. It also talks about, in the OT (I can't remember where, but it was a prophecy about the End Times) about the perils of those in the last days who do not keep the Feast of Tabernacles. I've only just started doing it though, so I'm sure no expert, and have no idea when the next one coming up is. There's a Messianic Jewish Synagogue that I visit when a Feast comes up. They are very festive, and a lot of fun!

I've just started studying this stuff, so I'm sure no expert-only offering my opinion here. But it seems that somehow the Feasts are very important......

A lot of experts believe that Jesus was born on Sukkot, which is the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles......so, if Jesus CAME (was born on) the Feast of Tabernacles.....and then the prophets talk about the peril of not keeping the Feast of Tabernacles in the End Times......I know no one knows the day when Jesus will return, but it's kind interesting how those two incidents compare...the birth of Jesus on Sukkot, and then talking about what will happen to those who don't KEEP the Feast of Tabernacles on the Day of the Lord.......kinda interesting thing I noticed the other day....it may mean nothing, but I thought it was fascinating.

Either way-we don't go out and murder people, tell lies, commit adultery, etc. etc.....so if we DON'T do those things, then we are automatically "keeping the Law", right? Of course we are not basing our salvation on that, but we ARE inadvertently keeping the Law..........

Personally, I keep the Sabbath because I think we should....if we are not lying, stealing, etc. then we may as well not forsake that Law too, right? I don't go overboard with it....I still cook food-but I don't work my job on the Sabbath.

The NT implies that Paul and the other disciples kept the Feasts after Jesus was crucified.

The books I'm reading talks about how, that verse in the NT that talks about "not keeping days and feasts, etc".....it says that Paul was talking to the Galations....they were Gentiles, so they never kept those Feasts and Sabbath to begin with! The book said that Paul was talking about DIFFERENT Feasts, etc. that the Galations were keeping....like from their pagan backgrounds.

I'm still studying this, but it's becoming more clear to me that Christians maybe should keep the Feasts and the 10 commandments of God. NOT as a basis of their salvation, because we are saved by grace-but at the same time....faith without works is dead. So to me, that can be saying that we can SAY we are saved, but if we don't keep God's commandments...ALL of them-NOT just the one that says love God and love your neighbor....then faith without works is dead.

Not trying to debate, just stating my opinion. I'm just starting to study this when I have time, so this is all I really know-so please don't attack me on this. lol

[priest4Him]

At the risk of starting a debate (I hope not!!), do you think it is okay for a Christian to follow the laws of the OT...eating clean, observing the feasts, etc.?

I've been reading some books about it, and it's rather fascinating. I haven't gotten it all straight in my head yet, but from what I understand, God's commandments (the 10 commandments) should be followed for the simple fact that they are GOD'S laws, and not the Law of Moses, or any other Levitical man-made law that the Pharisees or Saducees came up with AFTER God gave the 10 commandments.

That is interesting that you mention this