Following OT Law

[Guest yod]

I do believe in keeping the ten commandments, as Jesus instructed along with all of the other moral commandments in the NT.

I believe if we give some of these other folks an inch, they will have us all lined at for circumcision and kosher foods. They seem to want to hang on to the Law while dipping their big toe into God's grace.

Your insults are getting funnier!

Too bad that's all you have. If you were to actually study the Word for the truth, you'd see that I'm trying to help you.

I'll keep trying...

[~Shalhevet~]

If you were to actually study the Word for the truth, you'd see that I'm trying to help you.

I'll keep trying...

Can you try to help me?...the very confused and ever so bouncy ping pong ball that can't make decisions... ....wait.... I don't think there is help for people like me.

I kid. I kid.

Seriously though, I do appreciate your opinion on these issues.

[Guest yod]

With all due respect, yod, what is the purpose of following the laws if they do not offer salvation?

ahhh...thank you for due respect!

The Law was never given for salvation. Where did you get that idea?

Since Adam, flesh & blood is only saved by grace through faith

Why exactly did Jesus have to die on the cross?

Because men are cursed by breaking the Law...but the problem is not the Law itself. It's the people.

If we follow one law, we are to follow them ALL. Then why are we not stoning adulteresses? Why are we not sacrificing turtle doves? Serious questions.

That's easy.

The Law was also the Constitution for a nation of slaves who had just come out of Eygpt. They are given as our example. After the miracle deliverance by the blood of the Lamb, they refused an offer to become a nation of kings and priests at Sinai. So the Law was given because they refused righteousness and needed a "moral" standard.

Therefore, the Law is the standard of righteousness given to that nation. If anyone is interested in knowing what God thinks is the standard of righteousness for a people and a nation, then there is but one place to find out His opinion. The Tenach, whose foundation is the Torah. Do you really think even one Word from God is pointless, void, irrelevant, or useless?

His standards haven't changed but now all nations are coming to New Jerusalem so there is a need for a newer Covenant to allow all nations into the Kingdom of God and access to the place where He dwells.

And as I quoted Yeshua saying, we are responsible for understanding the Spirit of the Law through the Spirit of Holiness. That doesn't mean the Law is gone? It means it is interpreted in a much broader way....or "made fuller" (fulfilled)

For example: if you are caught speeding they give you a ticket. However, if you are speeding with a pregnant woman in the car, there is a reason for grace from the judge because you aren't breaking the "spirit" (purpose) of speeding laws, which is to protect life.

In like manner, we establish the Spirit of the Law. Instead of adultery being the act of fornication, it now becomes adultery just having a desire for the act of fornication with a woman you aren't married to. In other words, the spirit of the law forbidding adultery is that we love our wife. If we do that, we will naturally keep the Law against adultery.

There is still a law requiring the sacrifice of a blameless Lamb for mankind, but it is administered in a different way that all men may come! There is still a law of circumcision but that was always an outward sign of an inward faith so it is administered differently. There is still a law that says observe the Sabbath or churches wouldn't meet every Sunday (even if isn't actually THE Sabbath).

It is the administration of the Law which has changed. The penalty for sin has been paid in full and our only necessary response to receive forgiveness of every sin...past, present, future...is by the grace of God through trusting in Yeshua! The Name above all names!

That is the very essence of the gospel! We are set free from sin and it's power. God's righteous standards have been satisfied!

It's not that we are set free from the Law.? We are set free from the curse of breaking the Law. Big difference.

The Law is STILL holy, righteous, and good for instruction. Without it, there is no basis for knowing what sin is..and therefore no need for Yeshua's sacrifice on our behalf in the first place.

[KC02]

(Heb 8:6 [KJV])

Hebrews 8 is not talking about the Torah. It is talking about the vanishing older covenant. The covenants were how the Torah was administered. The writer of Hebrews is not saying the law is passing away, but that the old system of administration is passing away and a new covenant or administration is now in effect. It is the same Torah, but is observed under a new covenant.

The old covenant is thus: keep these commandments and be blessed or don't keep the commandments and be cursed.

If I take your stance, that the Law is still to be observed, it would seem logical that Christians today should be circumsized and eat only certain foods and the whole nine yards. Otherwise, you are saying the Law is still to be observed, but we don't really have to observe it, which makes even less sense to me.

(Gal 5:1 [KJV])

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Is Paul talking about the law, or the administration of the Law here? I'm not even sure what you mean by administration of the Law.

I guess they are three ways to view the New Covenant. One where Jesus reinterpreted it. One where Jesus simply augmented it. Or a third where we simply have a brand new covenant (based loosely on the OT).

At the end of the day, with the New Testament as our guide, I think we agree on most points of doctrine so it's not such a biggee.

[Guest shiloh357]

The old covenant is thus: keep these commandments and be blessed or don't keep the commandments and be cursed.

Yes, which is why it was the Old Covenenant that needed to undergo the change, not the law. "Law" and "Old Covenant" are not interchangable terms. The law was never the problem. God's law, according to Paul was holy, just and good. It was not what needed to be changed.

If if take your stance, that the Law is still to be observed, it would seem logical that Christians today should be circumsized and eat only certain foods and the whole nine yards. Otherwise, you are saying the Law is still to be observed, but we don't really have to observe it, which makes even less sense to me.

Why is it that people like you always reduce the law to the ceremonial aspects??? No one is making the case that Christians are expected to live as Jews. That is the problem. People like you create a strawman accusing us saying that we all need to be circumcised and so forth, even though I think you know that to be untrue.

We are still required to love our neighbor. That comes from the law. In fact, you cannot find ONE New Testament ethic that doesn't find its source in the OT Law. The New Testaement is actually very pro-law. The New Testament is built on Torah knowledge. Love is defined by the law. You cannot describe what love does without the commandments of God's law, because it is God's commandments that show us what love looked like.

Jesus kept God's law perfectly and at the same time was the expression of God's love. He defined the law as loving God and loving your neighbor.

(Gal 5:1 [KJV])

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Is Paul talking about the law, or the administration of the Law here?

Why would God's law be "bondage?" Did God put the children of Israel in bondage at Mt. Sinai??? Do you not see the absurdity of equating the law with bondage??? Galatians 5 is dealing not with the law per se, but with a twisted and heretical application of the law. The Galatians were being taught that they needed to become physical Jews

I'm not even sure what you mean by administration of the Law.

The Old Covenant was the adminstration of death. The New Covenant is the administration of life. Administration refers to the management or application of a certain thing.

[KC02]

If the Law is administered differently, how do you know how to interpret each of the laws for use today?

It would be a huge subjective mess to pull out only certain laws to keep while ignoring or "explaining away" others. I wasn't trying to build a straw man argument, I was simply carrying your theology to it's logical conclusion: if the law is valid, shouldn't we obey it and obey all of it?

The old covenant is thus: keep these commandments and be blessed or don't keep the commandments and be cursed.

Yes, which is why it was the Old Covenenant that needed to undergo the change, not the law. "Law" and "Old Covenant" are not interchangable terms. The law was never the problem. God's law, according to Paul was holy, just and good. It was not what needed to be changed.

If if take your stance, that the Law is still to be observed, it would seem logical that Christians today should be circumsized and eat only certain foods and the whole nine yards. Otherwise, you are saying the Law is still to be observed, but we don't really have to observe it, which makes even less sense to me.

Why is it that people like you always reduce the law to the ceremonial aspects??? No one is making the case that Christians are expected to live as Jews. That is the problem. People like you create a strawman accusing us saying that we all need to be circumcised and so forth, even though I think you know that to be untrue.

We are still required to love our neighbor. That comes from the law. In fact, you cannot find ONE New Testament ethic that doesn't find its source in the OT Law. The New Testaement is actually very pro-law. The New Testament is built on Torah knowledge. Love is defined by the law. You cannot describe what love does without the commandments of God's law, because it is God's commandments that show us what love looked like.

Jesus kept God's law perfectly and at the same time was the expression of God's love. He defined the law as loving God and loving your neighbor.

(Gal 5:1 [KJV])

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Is Paul talking about the law, or the administration of the Law here?

Why would God's law be "bondage?" Did God put the children of Israel in bondage at Mt. Sinai??? Do you not see the absurdity of equating the law with bondage??? Galatians 5 is dealing not with the law per se, but with a twisted and heretical application of the law. The Galatians were being taught that they needed to become physical Jews

I'm not even sure what you mean by administration of the Law.

The Old Covenant was the adminstration of death. The New Covenant is the administration of life. Administration refers to the management or application of a certain thing.

[sheya joie]

The Law was also the Constitution for a nation of slaves who had just come out of Eygpt. They are given as our example. After the miracle deliverance by the blood of the Lamb, they refused an offer to become a nation of kings and priests at Sinai. So the Law was given because they refused righteousness and needed a "moral" standard.

Yod, I have never heard the bolded part above before. Could you please explain further? And what verse(s) exactly please? That really caught my interest!

[Guest shiloh357]

If the Law is administered differently, how do you know how to interpret each of the laws for use today?

Because apart from the way it was administered is the issue of who it was given to. That, and the fact that the Bible is a system of progressive revealation and tells us exactly how understand and apply God's commandments today. Good hermeneutics and proper exegesis will always take into account the original audience and the intent of the author, and whether his teachings were meant to speak to that audience or to a broader audience.

It would be a huge subjective mess to pull out only certain laws to keep while ignoring or "explaining away" others.

No, It is not subjective at all. For example, the commandment pertaining to circumcision is specifically limited to the descendents of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob.

Without creating an unbearably long post, the Bible is very clear that the commandments pertaining to dietary laws, rituals, sacrifices, etc. were for the nation of Israel and were not given to the rest of the world. It is not a matter of explaining way parts of the law, but of recognizing what God intended to remain specific to Israel as a nation.

I wasn't trying to build a straw man argument, I was simply carrying your theology to it's logical conclusion: if the law is valid, shouldn't we obey it and obey all of it?

Yes it was a strawman. I think you know we are not advocating that Christians be circumcised or revert back to sacrifices. To argue that keeping one commandment in the Torah necessitates keeping them all is a fallacious argument.

Like I said, you cannot love someone the way the Bible commands without keeping God's law, as it is that law that defines love and teaches us how it works. "Do not murder, do not steal, honor your parents, do not covet, do not commit adultery, sexual purity, obedience to God, all of those are the outworking of love as described in the law. THAT is the logical conclusion of my position, which you fail to grasp.

[Matthitjah]

Yes,

Like I said, you cannot love someone the way the Bible commands without keeping God's law, as it is that law that defines love and teaches us how it works. "Do not murder, do not steal, honor your parents, do not covet, do not commit adultery, sexual purity, obedience to God, all of those are the outworking of love as described in the law. THAT is the logical conclusion of my position, which you fail to grasp.

That's exactly why our Lord told us that the First and Greatest Commandment was to Love the Lord with all our heats, minds, soul , and strength. If we do that, we will honor our parents, we will not commit adultery, we will remain pure, we will obey God (not because of the Law but despite it), we will not steal, and we will not murder (because man is made in the image of God).

Good job Shiloh.

[Saved_by_Jesus]

I don't know a lot about all this, but I honestly think that we need to study the book of Acts, and go by what the EARLY, first Christians were practicing, rather than just what the Nicene Creed said, which was written in the 4th century A.D. in an attempt to unify the Christian church under emperor Constantine.......

but was this creed just an attempt to unify the Christian church with pagan traditions from before Constantine converted....or was this the way that Jesus instructed the FIRST Christians to be in the early church?

Are we following MAN-MADE TRADITION over what Jesus told us in the early church of Acts??????

Carefully study the book of Acts.....and notice the things that the disciples did in that book. They kept the Feasts, for one thing.....and it doesn't say anything about them not keeping God's Commandments.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 15:7-9.... "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "

I think the book of Acts is how we should live.....whether or not the "Nicene Creed" thinks it is right or not? I mean, I'm sure I'll get a lot of bad comments about this, but who was Constantine really? An ex pagan who was trying to convert as many pagans to Christianity in as many ways as he could.....and made a creed out of it!

I'm nobody....I'm not a Bible scholar at all....I'm just a new Christian who wants to study the truth about what I believe.....and to me, that means to study the origins of the Nicene Creed, which is the "law" of Christianity. But that does not mean it's what God says is the truth.

To me, it means keeping the Feasts (I've just started learning about this), and the 10 commandments.....which most every Christian keeps anyway-EXCEPT most Christians keep every commandment EXCEPT the one about keeping the Sabbath!

Think about it....we all try to love God with all our hearts. We all TRY to love each other as we love ourselves. We all try not to lie, steal, commit adultry, covet, etc. etc......so here we are, all keeping the LAW! Yet when it comes to keeping the Sabbath, that's where people balk! They say..."Oh no! If I kept the Sabbath, I'd be under the Law,and fall from grace!"

Makes no sense. So I do my best to love everyone, love God with all my heart, believe in Jesus, keep the Feasts and follow the 10 commandments,, and yes, I keep the Sabbath. I don't work on the Sabbath.

As far as the sacrifices...of course I don't do them because Jesus took care of that when He became THE sacrifice for our sins. I eat any food I want, because Jesus said that what goes in the mouth is not what makes a man unclean. He declared all foods clean. So I don't worry about foods, although I still believe that some foods are disgusting, like pork because a pig will eat anything, even puke.

Just because something is good, does not mean it is good for you.

One thing that has always bothered me......all the "contridictions" that people find in the Bible, compared to what the Nicene Creed, or our pastors say, or our parents, grandparents, etc., etc......

Our God did not intend for us to be CONFUSED about what to do......Satan is the author of confusion, not God! God clearly tells us what to do in His Word, right? Yet we are confused by trying to incorporate the traditions of MAN into what God says to do........

NO WONDER no one can figure out what we are supposed to do! No wonder everyone is confused about Christianity! We are IGNORING what God clearly tells us to do, so that we can follow man-made traditions...and then we wonder why we are confused and have no idea what Christians are supposed to do!

Either way.....just my opinion here. Thought I'd jump in.