Evolution-A wolf in sheeps clothing

[e lansing]

Oh good grief, why on earth to some people think that all nonbelievers need is for someone to simply tell them they need to believe?

easyer said then to do. Its a start at any rate. btw, whats so good about grief?

Most non-believers in the U.S. already know the basic theology of Christianity, they already know who Jesus Christ is, they already know why Christianity sees salvation is important, they already know what Christianity says is going to happen to them if they are not saved. These are the things THEY ALREADY KNOW.

If they really knew these things, why are so many lost today? Most think they know, but they do not. Most Christians cannot tell you what they believe or why they believe it.

Those are two issues I have struggled with and, to be honest, continue to struggle with in my faith. Fortunately unlike yourself my faith was modeled upon watching Christians show the love of God to nonbelievers, not on sermons or lectures on the doctrinal omnipotence of a literal Creation account. Even then, however, it was a struggle to reconcile my faith with reality. I ended up jumping into discussions on the subject because I figured a true position should be defendable and so the best way to see how strong my own position was was to try and defend it. This led to a progression from old earth creationism, to Intelligent Design, and finally to Theistic Evolution with each step being pushed not by doubt in God but by an increasing understanding of how the universe operates.

Yet you still struggle with your faith. How do you know you are living by faith in Jesus? how do you know that when you die you are going to heaven? I know because I am not the same. I know because i have no doublts about my relationship with Jesus. Because I know who I am in Christ i do not waver in my faith. I understand hell, but I know that its not my eternity. I am this way because I gave Him all of my life, not just parts of my life.

For me however it wasn't so much the concept of suffering in hell that I had problems with as much as it was suffering on earth by both those who loved God and those who could care less about him alike. Spending over a decade in central Africa I experienced a level of suffering I simply could not reconcile with a loving God for a very long time

Suffering is part of the salvation package. Look at Jesus, Peter, John, Stephen, ect. today Look at all the people in other countries who are being killed for believing in Jesus. Most christians know what it is to be hated, rejected, scorned for there faith in Jesus at the hands/words of friends family and strangers.

I will say, however, that even now it bothers me when Christians try to convert non-believers by essentially throwing their bibles at them.

The Bible is our light, and the non-believer is in darkness, why not try to give him some light so he might see? Jesus would not be offended by sharing His word! Why would you? Jesus always quoted scripture to all people. Maybe because you have such a low regard for His word you are offended, and maybe that why you struggle in your faith.

e

[Fraught]

what's all the hoopla about? when we begin to read about the creation account, the earth was there. doesn't say anything about forming the actual sphere of the earth or the remainder of the universe. just the things on the earth, in natural, scientific, chronological order.

i don't know what all the fuss is about, except maybe people reading things into it that are not there.

[MorningGlory]

Islam is an invention of Mohamed. There is no truth to any of it.

This is something upon which we agree.

I would like to see the burka banned in Canada. I have gone after Islamic beliefs elsewhere, but there are no Muslims on this forum so it is pretty tough to engage them.

True; I don't think there are any muslims on this board. But I will venture that, if you 'engage' a true muslim and tell him his religion is false, you will be putting yourself in danger. I'm sure you know that. But I also believe that atheists don't bother much with islam because it IS just a cult.

Now if you want to start a thread bashing Islam I'll join right in with you.

My true feelings toward islam would not be allowed on this board.

Lurker is a true believer and I wouldn't even try. I have no objections to any of his beliefs. As far as I know I haven't ever persuaded anyone. Have you ever brought an atheist over from the Dark Side?

I'm not sure what Lurker has to do with the above. I have my own opinions about his beliefs. And no, I've never converted an atheist but, truthfully, there are none in my immediate circle. But it's interesting to read that you know where you are at the moment.

[Joshua-777]

I have a very devout friend who in a time of great angst did the same thing. I don't know whether he thought God ever answered him. Personally I believe God, if he exists, could answer anytime or anywhere, if he chose to do so. He didn't answer me. Was that because he didn't care to, or because there was nothing there to make a response? As I said before, you can only bang on that door for so long.

You must really have believed in God if you got emotional enough to get angry with him. Maybe that's the difference between us. Maybe I didn't get angry because I was never really sure there was anything to get angry at. God could have set me straight if he cared to; it seems he didn't care enough, he couldn't hear, or there was nothing there to hear my calls. Those were my options.

I have heard of many people asking God to prove himself, and he never does for them, I don't know why God does, but he wants us to come to him out of faith, I think that was my turning point. I think even though I was mad at God, I actually had faith, it wasn't about if God answers then he's real, if doesn't then he's not. I have met alot of people who have never experienced the presence of the Lord, who came to God at one point with the view, "prove yourself"

Here is a verse I think fits

Matthew 12:28-40

38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying,

[Guest]

....Someone made some comment about my always going after Christians....

It's Happened Before

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10

No Fear

They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Deuteronomy 32:16-20

Nor Wisdom

But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.

Ecclesiastes 8:13

Yet God Calls

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:16-17

Believe

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 11:25-26

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[MorningGlory]

True Christians, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder.

You wouldn't know a true Christian if one jumped up and bit you.

My stating that Christians do believe in evolution is no lie, not if I believe it -- and I do

Believing in something that is obviously false is called d-e-l-u-s-i-o-n.....

You have a pretty serious case of DENIAL, Morninglory. You should get that check out.

You have a pretty serious case of being an atheist and I deny that you are worried that Christians may lose their faith. You're a pure bred son of the father of lies, my friend.

Morninglory, time and time again I make arguments and you respond with jeers. I don't think I'll follow you around the mulberry bush on this one.

Translation: I stand mute because I have no answer.

[MorningGlory]

I don't follow your meaning.

You don't understand my meaning? That was a direct answer to your post (below)....

"Lurker is a true believer and I wouldn't even try. I have no objections to any of his beliefs. As far as I know I haven't ever persuaded anyone. Have you ever brought an atheist over from the Dark Side? "

to which I answered:

And no, I've never converted an atheist but, truthfully, there are none in my immediate circle. But it's interesting to read that you know where you are at the moment.

[e lansing]

Most non-believers in the U.S. already know the basic theology of Christianity, they already know who Jesus Christ is, they already know why Christianity sees salvation is important, they already know what Christianity says is going to happen to them if they are not saved. These are the things THEY ALREADY KNOW.

If they really knew these things, why are so many lost today? Most think they know, but they do not. Most Christians cannot tell you what they believe or why they believe it.

Lurker is right E Lansing, we do already know it. It doesn't mean we see any reason to believe it though. You point out that not even all Christians truly understand. I agree, and I would add that not all atheist fully understand either; but those of us in contact with you the most, I would argue, do have a better understanding.

I thought you had an independent mind, now we have two lurkers!

I do see what you are saying though. We don't really, really KNOW what you are saying. If we did we WOULD all believe; but I can turn that around and say if you really, really know what I KNOW then you would believe what I believe. I truly believe that. For me it is all clarity, as I am sure it is you.

What I meant was what the Bible really teaches, so many claim to know the message of Christ and when you ask them to share it, most do not know or they get so offended that they just walk away. Here at Worthy, there are a lot Of Christians who know what they believe and how to share it and then some. As far as what you know, to me it is a moot point. You will one day have to face God, not me. One of the things people will get judge on is every idle word ever spoken, so keep on speaking, your tally is rising

[MrClark]

I have concluded that the teaching of evolution is the biggest enemy of Christianity. Why? What else can be the reason for the increase of atheism? What else could have contributed to the hate of God in this country? What other teaching is there that causes more doublt about the truthfulness of scripture? Since our country has acceptrd this teaching as fact, look at the moral climate of our country today. I have not read any stats to support this claim, but this teaching of evolution has caused a lot of Christians to turn from Christ. When I use to work with the J-hi students at our church, there was more confusion about the truthfulness of scripture because of what they would learn at school. The greatest issue is that when it comes to science we are talking about truth, at lease thats what we expect. When we as Christians talk of scriptures, we think of it as truth. When these two conflict, confusion for the young mind.

As a Christian I will continue to fight against this evil along with others with the truth of scripture to expose these wolves in sheeps clothing.

Respectfully, I think you're wrong; evolution's not the biggest enemy of Christianity. In truth I don't think Christianity has one major obstacle facing it, but instead many. I see Christians becoming like islands in a sea. Look at the allegations of sexual abuse and cover up against the Catholic Church, or the long perceived hypocrisy in the faith by unbelievers - we say love your neighbor as you do yourself, and do not kill, and we start the Crusades, we preach infidelity and lying are sins, and men like Ted Haggard thrust themselves in the public spotlight, we preach acceptance and temperance and we start the French Wars of Religion. You might argue that these aren't the works of true Christians, but while believers make the distinction between Christians and True Christians, to unbelievers we're all the same. The modern world has come too fast, and the Church has made concessions where we should have stood our ground, while stubbornly refusing to budge on issues that really aren't that important to Christ's message. If you can stomach it, and I can't, watch Bill Maher and you'll see some of what I mean. You said you want to fight the evil of evolution, but I tell you the truth, if you want to defend Christianity, live your life so that people from all walks of life will say 'That's what I thought a Christian should be.'

[Fez]

I have concluded that the teaching of evolution is the biggest enemy of Christianity. Why? What else can be the reason for the increase of atheism? What else could have contributed to the hate of God in this country? What other teaching is there that causes more doublt about the truthfulness of scripture? Since our country has acceptrd this teaching as fact, look at the moral climate of our country today. I have not read any stats to support this claim, but this teaching of evolution has caused a lot of Christians to turn from Christ. When I use to work with the J-hi students at our church, there was more confusion about the truthfulness of scripture because of what they would learn at school. The greatest issue is that when it comes to science we are talking about truth, at lease thats what we expect. When we as Christians talk of scriptures, we think of it as truth. When these two conflict, confusion for the young mind.

As a Christian I will continue to fight against this evil along with others with the truth of scripture to expose these wolves in sheeps clothing.

Respectfully, I think you're wrong; evolution's not the biggest enemy of Christianity. In truth I don't think Christianity has one major obstacle facing it, but instead many. I see Christians becoming like islands in a sea. Look at the allegations of sexual abuse and cover up against the Catholic Church, or the long perceived hypocrisy in the faith by unbelievers - we say love your neighbor as you do yourself, and do not kill, and we start the Crusades, we preach infidelity and lying are sins, and men like Ted Haggard thrust themselves in the public spotlight, we preach acceptance and temperance and we start the French Wars of Religion. You might argue that these aren't the works of true Christians, but while believers make the distinction between Christians and True Christians, to unbelievers we're all the same. The modern world has come too fast, and the Church has made concessions where we should have stood our ground, while stubbornly refusing to budge on issues that really aren't that important to Christ's message. If you can stomach it, and I can't, watch Bill Maher and you'll see some of what I mean. You said you want to fight the evil of evolution, but I tell you the truth, if you want to defend Christianity, live your life so that people from all walks of life will say 'That's what I thought a Christian should be.'

I agree with almost everything you say, except perhaps for the crusades part That was another time, and another doctrine, but it does upset me when non believers still use it as an excuse for not knowing Jesus. I can't count how many times I have heard, "Yeah but what about the crusades", my answer is usually "Oh, tell me about them?" and the answer is usually, "umm well".....

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