Where was Joseph?

[ServingHim]

and if they were born to Mary, then wouldn't they be depicted so in the scriptures?  I think that NONE of us can truly know FOR SURE...but someday we will. 

Right on Sis

Sure glad this isn

[ServingHim]

and if they were born to Mary, then wouldn't they be depicted so in the scriptures?

Oh, but they are. In a few places.

In any event, if your brother was the Messiah, I can see very easily how the historians of the world might overlook you.

and if your brother was the Messiah, why wouldn't YOU be taking your mother home after the crucifixion of your brother... after all, Jesus toldl the Apostle John to take Mary home with him ... why didn't Jesus' alleged brothers take home Mary to care for her? Isn't that a bit odd? Where were Mary's sons? Why didn't THEY take her home and grieve with her and care for her...nope, John, the NON-brother/son took Mary, Jesus' mother home... John 19:26

[ServingHim]

I think Joseph was dead by the time Jesus started His ministry.

I don't think Joseph had other children. I don't think the Blessed Virgin had other children; imo, she remained a virgin all her life. I'm finally able to say that after all these years. I was raised Church of Christ; attended Independent Baptist (I've spend my entire life as a protestant) neither believe that, or teach that, but they do refer to each other (or they did when I went) as "brother" and "sister". Brother so-and-so how are you today?, sister so-and-so did you look up those scriptures I was talking about? No biological connection there unless you go all the way back to Adam and Eve. Language matters, language AND culture are important.

Many middle eastern families lived together under the same roof in Jesus' era. Yes they did refer to each other as "brother" and "sister".

It amazes me that people accept the fact that Mary was virgin who gave birth to a baby, but they just can't believe she could remain a virgin all her life, or that a husband would go along with this. On an earthly level, I don't think I'd be "turned on" by a woman who gave birth to God (I'd feel guilty) but none of this, the birth of our Savior was entirely earthly or carnal. This was a spiritual thing that took place and God imo created both the Blessed Virgin and St. Joseph for a special purpose...end of story. Both were sinners..true, but they just were not your average run of the mill worthyboard poster either.

Remember Jesus did ask St. John to care for His mother. If there'd been other biological brothers and sisters this obligation would have fallen to them, unless they were all dead, along with Joseph.

Also, check your concordances, there were several woman named Mary, it can get very confusing.

No, it's not a salvation issue. When we get to heaven which of us is gonna go up to the Virgin Mary and ask her if she did the deed with Joseph. I'm not.

charlie, beautifully said...

[Guest charlie]

They teach it with dogmatic certainty, and that is the thing I have a problem with.

But Steve, many protestants teach with equal dogmatic certainty that she did have other children.

One thing that really, REALLY, surprised me about this particular topic was that the first reformers dogmatically insisted that the Virgin Mary WAS a perpetual virgin. Now, I don't know your background but in mine (restoration church and fundamentalist baptist) this was NEVER mentioned. I don't even know if the leadership of either church was aware of it, I doubt they were, but even if that's the case, somewhere along the line, this FACT was left out. Now, I have to ask why because to me this is very important when you look at time line of the Christian religion. Point being, the very "idea" that Mary was not a perpetual virgin, and that she had other children, is a relatively NEW idea in the Christian world. I'm not even sure the idea is 200 yrs old yet. I'd have to go back and check again to find out. That might be something you'd want to investigate on your own because there's nothing more effective than investigating a topic and finding the information on your own.

I used to argue this issue vehemetly with a Catholic co-worker and I could never convince him that Mary had other children. I used to shake my head at that; now I understand why.

[on a side note] another thing I noticed when I worked around a lot of Catholics was that they usually referred to the virgin Mary as the "Blessed Virgin", even the less "religious" of the bunch referred to her this way. I noticed this because the Bible refers to this when the angel told Mary she was going to give birth to the Savior she replied that she would be referred to as blessed. We sure didn't refer to her as blessed in my church, nor did any of the other protestants I was surrounded with, worked with, went to school with, ONLY the Catholics did this; therefore, in this regard, they were the only ones fullfilling scripture. That seriously stuck in my mind.

[stevehut]

and if your brother was the Messiah, why wouldn't YOU be taking your mother home after the crucifixion of your brother...

Good question:

Mark 3:31-35

Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."

"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

At least in this one instance, it appears that his mother and brothers were not his followers. Here, it says that Jesus was indoors somewhere teaching his disciples - but his mother and brothers were outside, asking him to interrupt his meeting and come out. So he ignored them and called his followers his family.

That could easily explain why his brothers weren't there.

[stevehut]

1- the first reformers dogmatically insisted that the Virgin Mary WAS a perpetual virgin.

2- Now, I don't know your background but in mine (restoration church and fundamentalist baptist)

3-Point being, the very "idea" that Mary was not a perpetual virgin, and that she had other children, is a relatively NEW idea in the Christian world.

4- That might be something you'd want to investigate on your own

5- even the less "religious" of the bunch referred to her this way.

6- I noticed this because the Bible refers to this when the angel told Mary she was going to give birth to the Savior she replied that she would be referred to as blessed.

1- You're speaking of the Reformation era? If so, it shouldn't be a surprise. All of the reformers were closet Catholics, working for change.

2- Church of Christ?

3- Even if true, why is this important? Mary is not my savior, and not the object of my devotion.

4- Oh, but I have. The issue of sexuality in Christian history is very interesting.

5- Not surprising, because in many countries, Catholicism is a cultural thing that even non-believers immerse themselves in.

6- Yes, I have heard this argument before. Basically, it makes the asumption that Mary was a prophet. Which, of course, is absurd.

In any event, I have no problem with recognizing Mary as blessed. But then again, so are many other people. It doesn't mean they have any relevance in my religious devotion.

[nebula]

It amazes me that people accept the fact that Mary was virgin who gave birth to a baby, but they just can't believe she could remain a virgin all her life, or that a husband would go along with this.

OK - why?

Did they get word from the Lord, "No sex between you two - ever!"

[Guest shadow2b]

-ETERNAL VIRGINITY??--PURE--POPPYCOCK---Why does this ERRONEOUS "Theory" keep coming up??-The scriptures clearly state JESUS had other Brothers & Sisters---

-MATT.13.vss.54.Thru.57------

-And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue,

-insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this

-wisdom, and these mighty works? 

-Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his

-brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 

-And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man

-all these things?-And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A

-prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house

-Mark-6.vss.1.Thru.4---------

-And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples

-follow him.  -And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the

-synagogue: and -many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath

-this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that

-even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? -Is not this the carpenter, the

-son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are

-not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.-But Jesus said unto -

-them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own

-kin, and in his own house. 

-Now the {Erroneous "Theory"} that these verses only refer to the brothers & sisters as being just "people" in his ministry or the children of Joseph by a Previous marriage--Since all these Brothers & Sisters were NOT the real half-Brothers & Sisters then it would Follow--logically that"Mary"was NOT the ACtual Mother of JESUS--she would be the "Other"Mary" or just a "Woman"in HIS-ministry-or a follower & NO Actual Relationship to JESUS at all-NOT The Mother of JESUS--Just a Sister-in the-LORD'S Ministry!!- Named Mary--sooooo--Since This Mary was NOT the mother of JESUS--then I Reckon Mary HIS Mother had Died already most-likely in "Child-birth"....RIGHT?? IF ALL these People only Stated are not his MOTHER-MARY-& HIS FATHER--JOSEPH--HERE AMONG US??-WHY WOULD ANY of the people mentioned be any relation to JESUS??Hmmm??- INcluding Joseph & Mary??

[Guest charlie]

1- You're speaking of the Reformation era? If so, it shouldn't be a surprise. All of the reformers were closet Catholics, working for change.

True, but we need to also take into account that when we dismiss beliefs that were considered "common knowledge" for 1500 -1800 yrs we're also dismissing the possibility that those Christians who came before us were also led by the Holy Spirit; we like to think we all have it, and we accept that they were led by the Holy Spirit in other areas of interpretation that are far more important imo than this one.

2) Even if true, why is this important? Mary is not my savior, and not the object of my devotion.

It's something interesting for us Christians to talk about I guess. I don't think anyone believes Mary is our savior but her Son is.

4- Oh, but I have. The issue of sexuality in Christian history is very interesting.

How bout those pilgrims?

6- Yes, I have heard this argument before. Basically, it makes the asumption that Mary was a prophet. Which, of course, is absurd.

I don't tend to view Mary as a prophet but this verse I'm referring to IS in scripture

Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

[Guest charlie]

As far as Jesus asking John to take care of Mary. I've always been told that James was the biological brother of Jesus; James the author of the book of James; James the first Bishop of the church in Jerusalem; James the one whose remains are thought to have been found a few years back.

Question: If James were indeed Jesus biological brother, and a follower of Jesus, then why didn't he take over the care of Mary?

Also I'm thinking the early Christians had the same scriptures we have. If they read those verses that we think indicates biological siblings, and still didn't think Jesus had biological siblings, then that to me, indicates a difference in communication in regards to culture and language. I've heard some people claim the evil catholic church promoted the idea of perpetual virginity. That doesn't make sense either. If they'd wanted to promote something that went against scripture here they had access to the scriptures, why didn't they just rewrite it or "write in" something like: Mary remained a virgin all her life. It would have been a fairly easy thing to do.

As someone has already said this is not a salvation issue, but it is kinda fun to try and figure it out.