Sin, once repented, always forgiven?

[apothanein kerdos]

I say the opposite is true. I say a belief in which you can lose your salvation denies the nature of God and destroys the purpose behind Christianity.

How so?

Refrence my first post. It denies the soveriegnty of God and the power of His grace. I'm still waiting for someone to at least respond to my first post.

[apothanein kerdos]

DEAD Faith in the blood of Christ is inadequate, not the blood. Remember, saved by Grace THROUGH Faith? It's not a matter of whether Christ's blood is adequate, it's a matter of whether you BELIEVE Christ's blood is adequate.

When you get the chance, I'd like to see Scriptural support for this please. Because the verses that come to mind for me are these:

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has not deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed", but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." James 2:14-18

Essentially, if you are claiming to live a life of faith, yet there is no fruit ...your faith is not alive. Earlier, Bob said not to throw out "well you weren't saved in the first place" (or something to that effect)...but, that is the essence of these verses (as well as the verses in John 15 about bearing fruit). An apple tree does not produce oranges. If your life does not reflect your faith in your actions, there is reason to question your faith. As the verses in James say, even the demons believe. It is one thing to have "belief" and entirely another to have "faith".

Tess, I was actually just trying to show KMB that just because we don't believe in OSAS doesn't mean we think that Christ's sacrifice on the cross wasn't enough to save us...That's it...

The problem is, a belief in lost salvation IS denying the power of the blood of Christ. The thing is people tell me, "The only way you can lose your salvation is if you deny Christ and turn your back on your salvation." If this were true then we'd have to live in a perpetual state of perfection. Anytime we sin it is a denial of Christ and caused by a lack of faith. Thus anytime you sin, no matter how small, it is denying Christ and in essense giving up your salvation.

That is why this belief is dangerous and denies the power of the blood of Christ.

[Guest Called]

The thing is people tell me, "The only way you can lose your salvation is if you deny Christ and turn your back on your salvation." If this were true then we'd have to live in a perpetual state of perfection. Anytime we sin it is a denial of Christ and caused by a lack of faith. Thus anytime you sin, no matter how small, it is denying Christ and in essense giving up your salvation.

That is why this belief is dangerous and denies the power of the blood of Christ.

That is not true of the stance of people who don't believe in OSAS..

We don't have to live in a perpetual state of perfection, but of repentance and when one gives up the belief in OSAS the Holy Spirit really begins to convict.. You see the seriousness of sin and you are alot more in tune with the conviction of the Holy Spirit...

I mess up all the time, but every time I hit the floor and I am crying out to God to forgive me...I am going to heaven though...I have not denied my Father, I am not living in willful rebellion, I am not choosing the things of the world, I am following Christ no matter what...

Do you think that Judas Iscariot went to heaven? I mean he was a follower of Christ, but he then rejected Christ, so based on OSAS, Judas is in heaven right now...Right?

[Guest Called]

OSAS is probably one of the most dangerous doctrines in the church today ...

And I believe the opposite is true. Believing you can lose your salvation is dangerous because it leads to a life of performance based faith.

This is not true, my salvation is based on the shed blood of Jesus Christ. You know how I can lose my salvation? By rejecting Christ and someone can be truly and completely saved and bear fruit and then reject Christ, it happens all the time. It has happened in my own family...

There is nothing I can do to "earn" my way into heaven, it is a free gift, I understand that...

[apothanein kerdos]

Nice try but no cigar. I'm not saying that you willfully believe we have to be in a perpetual state of perfection, I'm saying that is a consequence of that belief.

Anytime we sin we are in effected denying Christ with our lifestyle. You can you're not, but the simple fact is, you are. Sin is nothing more than arrogance, saying your way is better than God's way. Thus anytime we sin we are elevating ourselves above God and as a consequence denying Him. Thus if salvation is not secure, any and everytime we sin, we are doomed to hell. Thus, if I'm about to be in a car wreck and take the Lord's name in vain two seconds before I hit a car and die, I'd go to hell. You may not believe it, but that is the literal consequence of your belief.

As for Judas, I don't know. I don't know if he was truly saved or not. Matthew 7:1 teaches me I am not to judge such things.

Again, can you respond to my original post or are you just going to conceed it?

[Guest Called]

Yet to expound on this I simply turn to Matthew 7:23 which states:

[apothanein kerdos]

Yet to expound on this I simply turn to Matthew 7:23 which states:

[Guest Called]

Yet to expound on this I simply turn to Matthew 7:23 which states:

[Kabowd]

I think this could be a productive discussion if there were some actual direct responses. Throwing out multiple questions, scenarios and even additional Scripture while avoiding those that have already been given will get us nowhere. Super Jew and I have tried to reply directly to verses that have been given, but there are still several posts made by us that everyone seems to be avoiding..preferring instead to post other verses and hypotheticals.

Here's just a re-cap of the things that haven't been responded to:

What I understand is, that we can't pull verses out individually and come to a conclusion. We have to look at them within context and study what comes before it and immediately after it.

For instance, the Scripture you use for Hebrews. Did you know that the entire chapters of Hebrews 9 and 10 are completely devoted to explaining to believers that continual sacrifices are no longer necessary becaues of Christ's blood? Some believers were under the impression (as you seem to be) that Christ's blood did not cover all sins, that more sacrifices were needed - as in the old days with bulls and goats. The author of Hebrews is explaining that because Christ's blood was paid ONCE AND FOR ALL, there is no need for further sacrifice (in other words, once forgiveness is granted it is perpetual and not temporary).

Let's look at some of the other verses found in Hebrews:

"The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance - now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.....For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true on; He entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. Nor did He enter heaven to offer Himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him." Heb. 9:13-15, 24-27

"Then He said, "Here I am, I have come to do Your will". He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religioius duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this Priest had offerered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time He waits for His enemies to be made His footstool, because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First He says:

"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Then He adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin." Heb. 10:9-18

When we read these in context, it supports what I said earlier all the more.

And this:

QUOTE    

Ok, hypothetical situation here....I get saved around age 16 let's say. Grew up in the Church, all I ever knew was Christianity.....I love the Lord....

Then later I start to drift away from church....and then I get involved heavy into drug abuse and sins associated with drug use......if I were to die - living in unrepentant sin, would God still allow me into heaven ?

 

Yes. Here's why: If you've accepted Christ's sacrifice once, then ALL your sins were covered by His blood (sins past, sins present, sins future). Repentance (while a fruit of a true believer) is not equal to salvation. If it was, this would be considered a "work". We know that in Ephesians 2:8,9 that we cannot work to earn salvation. Also, how is your hypothetical situation any different than this one:

I get saved around age 16...grew up in Church, love the Lord ..but struggle with the issue of lust. On the way home from church one day I see a guy walking down the street and begin to have impure thoughts. Suddenly, I'm in a car accident and killed instantly. Would God allow me into heaven?

You see, no matter how good and obedient we all try to live..there will always be things that trip us up. We can't go one day without sin in our lives. If we have to confess each and every sin each time in order for salvation to be secure, then this is no different than the priests of the old covenant.

QUOTE    

God doesn't force His love on us does He ? Is that really love ? Love is a two way street....yes - God WILL keep His end and save you, BUT, if you turn your back on Him, will He FORCE you to love Him ? That's not love is it ? He wants our obedience!

 

I 100% agree that God wants us to live in obedience. And I agree that He never forces Himself upon us. However, I do not believe love is a two-way street. Scripture says that we were DEAD in sin (before salvation). What can a dead man do? Can a dead man love? Can a dead man do anything? No. We love Him BECAUSE He first loved us. (I John 4:19). Let's also not forget that God's love is unconditional. He doesn't save us, then change His mind because we disobey. He knew in advance, each and every time we would sin. He didn't send His Son to the cross without all the facts. Nothing you or I have ever done has taken Him by surprise. While God commands obedience, I do not believe it is a condition by which we earn or maintain our salvation.

QUOTE   

So, if love is a two way street and I CHOSE to turn on God and live a life of sin, is God going to save me whilst in sin ?

 

Again, I respectfully disagree on the two-way street thing. Another example I would have for this is the covenant God made with Abram (found in Gen. 15). When God made the covenant with Abram, how did Abram participate? What did he have to "do"? Notice that he did NOTHING. God caused him to fall into a deep sleep, and God Himself fulfilled the covenant between the two of them.

QUOTE    

is God going to save me whilst in sin ?

 

Isn't that the essence of Romans 5:8?

"But God demonstrated His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

QUOTE    

Can I just throw a OSAS blanket statement and say "well, I'm saved so they're forgiven ? Kinda cheapens grace doesn't it ?

 

Not at all. In fact, I believe the contrary to your statement would be true: if grace is conditional upon how I perform, this would cheapen it. Personally, I think it increases it's value. Where sin abounds, grace increases all the more (Romans 5:20).

Here are a couple of more Scriptures that support my belief:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance th race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the Author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning it's shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:1-2

In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership with the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

Philippians 1:4-6

From these verses I learn a couple of things:

#1 Jesus is the Author and perfecter. What He starts, He finishes. Salvation is initiated by God and He continues to do a work in us from the point of salvation until the day Christ returns.

#2 The Christian journey is likened to a race...yet it is clear that there are hinderances and "sin that easily entangles us". It does not state that we go back to the beginning each time we sin. We would never make it to the finish that way because we constantly sin. Instead it tells us to persevere, and cast off those things that hinder us. We don't go back to the starting point...we are just "freed up" to carry on in the race as Christ "perfects" us.

I asked a question earlier that really wasn't answered:

* If God says He forgives..and even forgets our sin...casts it as far as the East is from the West (Ps. 103:12; Heb.9:17-18), how is it not calling Him a liar to then say He will hold them against us?

And in light of the other two Scriptures I just gave I have a couple more questions:

* If God initiates salvation, and performs it on our behalf....what makes us think we can then take it into our own hands?

* In light of the verse in Philippians 1, does God finish what He starts or not?

* In light of the verses in Hebrews 12, what does "Author" and "Perfecter" mean?

This post by Super jew:

Many will say that a debate on salvation does not matter as long as we believe in Jesus. I use to believe this as well until I realized that questioning our salvation, on either spectrum, brought into question the sovereignty and authority of God. It also brings into the question of grace and if it is limitless or is bound by our faith. It can effect the walk of a Christian and the decision of a lost person, thus, it is quite an important issue to be dealing with. Thus, can a Christian give up their salvation? After much study and much pondering on the subject, I have come to a resounding

[BobTriez]

Greetings in Him,

Ok, I think we all need to back up here and look at salvation from an eternal view and not from a frame of time. That being said, first we need to define our relationship with God and His love. What is love ? For those of you who are married, have kids, or even your love for your parents, let me ask you something.....would my wife's love for me mean anything if I forced her to love me ? What would that be ? We are married because we both love each other; not because we have to or are forced to, but because we desire it....I love her, she loves me....it's a two way street.

God's love is the same way....and He desires an obedient child....He wants our love - but He doesn't force you to love Him...right ? That would not be love. We have the choice to either love God, or the choice to not love God.

I've been reading through all these posts here and I'm seeing some misunderstandings here....eternal security and OSAS are not the same thing. Let me explain.

I believe in eternal security and I'd dare say most will agree with me here. I made a choice - God has given me that ability. Because of how good God is, He showed His love to me and made it clear that He desired my obedience.....nothing pleases Him more than an obedient child When I made that choice, God accepted me into His fellowship and the price for my sins were paid in full ( what a feeling! ). God promised me that He would love me forever ( what a feeling! ) and that no one could ever take me away from Him ( what a feeling! ). I am His and He is mine.

But the problem I'm seeing here is people tend to forget what love is....remember how it's defined ? Yes, God loves me and will keep His end of the promise....however I need to love Him back...and I do! There is nothing more I desire than to obey my God! But I still have a choice, just like my wife does. I do not require her to love me. She is in fact able to leave me at any time she chooses. And I wouldn't desire to love her if that option wasn't open! She's married to me because she wants to be and that is what makes it so special.

God's love is the same and I have no fears of ever loosing my salvation....why ? because God will love me - always and I will love Him - always.....so in that sense my salvation is secure....God will never forsake me! BUT - I can forsake Him. Just like my wife is free to forsake me at any time ( and that's how I want it - I did not marry a robot programmed to "love" me ) If I choose to leave God, knowing that our relationship is a two way street, I can in fact leave Him. Not that I would ever do that, but sadly many do! And God does not force anyone to "love" Him if they really don't.

Eternal security IS real and it's beautiful! But it does NOT mean that once you enter into this relationship you are free to do what you want. When I got married I accepted some limitations - willfully, but I still accepted them. I promised that I would never love anyone else other than her and she promised me the same. I simply can't sign a marriage certificate and then go doing whatever I want with whomever I choose! NO! We have a bond between us and that, sadly could in fact be broken. We do not force our commitments on each other - we keep them because we want to. Same with God. And if I choose to decide that I no longer want to be part of Him, I am in fact able to walk away.

OSAS teaches the illustration above but in a negative way. It teaches that once you enter into this relationship, you are free to do what you want. and you can argue with me until you are blue in the face that it's not so, but it is.....I was there once. And the "hypothetical situation" I spoke of earlier ( second page ogf this thread ) is in fact true to my life. I entered a love relationship with God when I was young, but I was "young and stupid" and I made a decision to go my own way. I'm not going to get into all the specifics, but I turned from a young Christian man into an evil and VERY bad person. And I did some bad and regrettable things.....but they were by my choice. I in fact said to God "I want to go my own way, I do not love you anymore " and God, being whom He is and reflecting true love said "I'm so sorry son, but you are free to go if you want. I don't force you to love Me - I desire you to obey me. If you no longer want to obey me, you may go"

So, I left. And I ( not God, but I ) severed the relationship. But I grew up believing in OSAS and I always justified my sins by throwing a OSAS bombshell at them and saying "well, God's grace is sufficient - it will pay for my sins" and I never repented of them. Jesus made it clear in not uncertain terms that we MUST repent.....and how can you repent - and I mean REALLY repent when in the back of your mind you are thinking "grace will cover these - I'm ok ".

Don't get me wrong, grace WILL cover your sins and NO work will pay for them; but repentance is not work! It's an attitude of your heart towards God. If I go around downplaying my sins all the time, how can I expect a full relationship with God.

The Bible clearly says that if we deliberately continue in sin after we know the truth, there is NO sacrifice for sin ( Heb 10:26 ). Folks, that is NOT an ambiguous statement! It is clear as day! You can NOT misuse grace and just think all will be ok because you were saved years ago.

And the bottom line here is this - when you believe in OSAS it makes you a LAZY CHRISTIAN! You do not feel the need nor the desire to confront your sins - one on one with God and REPENT of them! It's much easier to live a life of complacency! I know! But that's not loving God people......God requires our obedience and more so He DESIRES it! But He won't force it on you.

I hear a lot of people asking in other threads on how they can hear God speak to them and I have to tell you - when you have hidden and un repented sin in your life, you are putting your hands over your ears and going "la la la la ba ba ba ma ma ma la la"....you can't hear Him speak! You need to take that sin, present it to God and say "Daddy, I admit I have this sin, I want to get rid of it please" and He will take it away! But how are you ever going to do that if you refuse to really stare your sins in the eyes and admit to them ? By saying a quick 30 second prayer once a day like " forgive me of all my sins " ?!?!? How is that repentance ?

Sorry to go on so long here, but OSAS scares me. We have people asking "how can I hear God speak to me ?" well let me tell you - He won't until you come clean.....and assuming that you are "safe" because you were saved 20 years ago ? No! Is that love ? Is that obedience ? Too many people are comforted by this doctrine and for good reason! It lies to you and tells you that it's ok to delay repenting - or ignore it completely.....folks, that's not right!

This whole thing has nothing to do with works people, please do not assume that. Salvation is a gift from God....it's a gift of love and it's free, but when Christ hung on that cross and bore our sins ? We'll never no the misery. And it cheapens His sacrifice when we refuse to repent ( confess and turn from ) of our sins.

Grace is free......yes, but you can't waste it and you mustn't abuse it. It was paid for at a price.....a very large price and I for one intend on cherishing that gift instead of throwing it around wastefully at my fleshy desires in an attempt to justify my fleshy desires......I serve one Master....ONE.

God bless and go in His peace,

Bob