Predestination?

[Guest Watchman_2]

If God knows all the past, future, and present, God wants us to be where we are. He knew the end before the beginning. He knows who will fail him and who will not. While he may grant free will, the outcomes have already been decided. It's a perplexing process that I need help in understanding if anyone knows about this.

This is very easy to understand in principle; but, it becomes complex to some when they delve deeper into the subject. The Bible is replete with scripture describing 'free will' and 'predestination'. Of course, one cannot be 'predestinated' and be of those that have 'free will'. Likewise, if one has been classified [by God] as a person with 'free will' only, that person is not of the 'predestinated' ones. It is clear that 'predestination' is mutually exclusive of 'free will'.

Christ made it clear in John 6:39-40 that there are the two classifications of people for salvation. In v. 39, Christ tells us that he will save those given to him [by God], which are the 'predestinated' ones. In v. 40, Christ tells us that He will also save those that have 'free will' and believe in Him. Since Christ spells out the two classifications, it is plain and simple for us to accept this Bible Truth.

The complexity comes into play when Christians begin to think how it is that some are 'predestinated' and the rest have 'free will'. Since all of us are born as babies, 'free will' is easy to understand -- we all have the same opportunity. However, the problem comes when Christians consider what it is that makes some 'predestinated'??

Since most Christians cannot figure out how it is that some are 'predestinated', they come up with a 'combo-theology' wherein they include the 'predestinated' as part of those with 'free will'. Of course, any 'combo-theology' flies in the face of logic and scripture. It never works.

The inability of most Christians to understand 'predestination' stems from the illiteracy of most churches relative to the three ages. Every Christian understands that there will be an age to come after Judgment. However, for some reason, most Christians are closed-minded when it comes to the fact that there was an age before the one we are currently in [2 Pet. 3]. 'Predestination' for some is derived from their actions in the first age. Since God is completely fair, those, who are saved based upon the first age, should not be placed at risk with 'free will' in this second age.

Hope this helps you out.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Watchman_2

[enoob57]

If God knows all the past, future, and present, God wants us to be where we are. He knew the end before the beginning. He knows who will fail him and who will not. While he may grant free will, the outcomes have already been decided. It's a perplexing process that I need help in understanding if anyone knows about this.

Sovereignty and free will, infinite and finite, predestination and choice etc. all this is bound up into this reality God's Word exceeds our created positional abilities thus God teaches us in this way-

Matt 5:17-18

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

NKJV

All of God's Word even to the minutest detail is being fulfilled! Hence in the last days will this not also be fulfilled-

Rom 11:33-36

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?" 35 'Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?" 36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

NKJV

There is an understanding of logic / reason in our created world- truth resides in non-contradiction. So when God says I have elected out or predestined how can free will (choice) be possible this has split the minds of Godly people into two basic camps Calvinist their favorite flower is the TULIP and Armenians with their favorite flower the DAISY each one of these flowers letters forms a doctrinal belief system of Theology 1st. TULIP T= total depravity, U= unconditional election, L= Limited atonement, I= Irresistible grace, P= Perseverance of the Saints. The 2nd DAISY D = Depravity,A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace), I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection), S = Sovereignty (of the sinner), Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty.

Either camp will violate exegetical standards in order to fit their system into a completed rational so that they may teach a completed logic!

My testimony in this pursuit of understanding God's Word: obedience to God is the only way given us by God to show Him we love Him and others around us- 1 John 5:2-3

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

NKJV

Job 35:10-14

10 But no one says, 'Where is God my Maker,Who gives songs in the night, 11 Who teaches us more than the beasts of the earth, And makes us wiser than the birds of heaven?' 12 There they cry out, but He does not answer,Because of the pride of evil men. 13 Surely God will not listen to empty talk, Nor will the Almighty regard it. 14 Although you say you do not see Him,Yet justice is before Him, and you must wait for Him.

NKJV

I believe God teaches us that all of His ways exceed all abilities we have been given. This so in obedience we (as children) wait for Him to enlarge us that we may be in His good time able to speak these glories of our Father's unbounded truths. Now we cry Abba Father that we would not take the gifts already received and lift ourselves as satan did to the lie of unthankfulness to our Father who has ordained our created existence through the Creator The Son! I am not ashamed to be small in His presence for in my smallness is the great need of my Lord. So that when I wake I immediately recognize the need of Him and as I pass through the day, which He has ordered it for me, I may seek Him to do His pleasure by the obedience of The Word He has given me and as I lay down to sleep He shows me where I failed that I might repent of the wrong within me that caused the failings. Perfect peace belongs to the sleep of the forgiven of God and the hope of Him forever within our being! Love Steven

[priest4Him]

If God knows all the past, future, and present, God wants us to be where we are. He knew the end before the beginning. He knows who will fail him and who will not. While he may grant free will, the outcomes have already been decided. It's a perplexing process that I need help in understanding if anyone knows about this.

Because God knows the past, present and future does not means that He decided for you, to sin or not sin is your decision and is call "Free will"

[Guest]

Well

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2

All I Know

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door,

I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

Is Jesus Loves Me

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,

despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

Because The Bible Tells Me So

It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. Lamentations 3:22-23

>>>>>()<<<<<

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the LORD:

but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isaiah 66:2

Love, Your Brother Joe

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say,

We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. Luke 17:10

[OneLight]

If God knows all the past, future, and present, God wants us to be where we are. He knew the end before the beginning. He knows who will fail him and who will not. While he may grant free will, the outcomes have already been decided. It's a perplexing process that I need help in understanding if anyone knows about this.

Because God knows the past, present and future does not means that He decided for you, to sin or not sin is your decision and is call "Free will"

I would like to suggest that God has looked down through time and knew beforehand who would accept His salvation, and those He predestined to conform to Christ Jesus for good works in Him.

Romans 8:29

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ephesians 2:10

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

[Albert Finch]

Some of the future has to be unsettled and not necessarily foreknown by God simply because of man's dominion (free choice) given to him by God in Genesis 1:26.

The Lord regretted His decision to make Saul king of Israel. While having a king was never God's first choice, the appointment of Saul could have worked out well. Indeed, Scripture tells us that God had intended to bless him and his household for many generations (1 Samuel 13:13).

Unfortunately, Saul chose to forsake God's way and to pursue his own agenda. When Saul's heart changed, God's plan for him changed; he was no longer going to bless Saul. Instead, God removed him from his appointed office and allowed his sin to take its course. Saul had gotten so wicked that the Lord said, "I regret that I made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me" (1 Sam 15:10). The point is reiterated for emphasis several verses later, when Scripture says, "the Lord was sorry that he had made Saul king over Israel" (1 Sameul 15:35).

One must wonder how the Lord could truly experience regret for making Saul king if He was absolutely certain that Saul would act the way he did. Could God genuinely confess, "I regret that I made Saul king" if he could in the same breath also proclaim, "I was certain of what Saul would do when I made him king"? It does not seem reasonable.

Albert Finch

http://afministry.ning.com (New Studies Every Day)

[billiejean]

Omniscience:

Job 37:16 (New King James Version) Do you know how the clouds are balanced,

Those wondrous works of Him who is perfect in knowledge?

Job 36:4 (New King James Version) For truly my words are not false;

One who is perfect in knowledge is with you.

1 John 3:20 (New King James Version) For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

Hebrews 4:13 (New King James Version) And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Isaiah 46:9-10 (New King James Version) Remember the former things of old,

For I am God, and there is no other;

I am God, and there is none like Me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning,

And from ancient times things that are not yet done,

Saying,

[Albert Finch]

Scripture may suggest the future is partially open and God sometimes expresses uncerainty about it. For example, he asks Moses, "How long will this people despise me? And how long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs that I have done among them?" (Numbers 14:11).

Similarly, we later read of God asking Hosea, "How long will they (Israel) be incapable of innocence?" (Hosea 8:5; 1 Kings 22:20). If God wonders about future issues, does this not imply that the future is to some extent unsettled?

Some suggest that in these verses the Lord was asking rhetorical questions, just as he had done when he asked Adam and Eve where they were (Gen. 3:8-9). Unlike God's question about location in Genesis, there is nothing in these texts or in the whole of Scripture that requires these questions to be rhetorical. Moreover, the fact that the lord continued for centuries, with much frustration, to try to get the Israelites not to "despise" Him and to be "innocent" suggests that the wonder expressed in these questions was genuine. The duration of the Israelites' stubbornness was truly an open issue.

Albert Finch

http://afministry.ning.com (New Studies Every Day)

[Albert Finch]

Isaiah 5:4,5 --- "What move could have been done to My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, did it bring forth wild grapes? And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineward: I will take away it's hedge, and it shall be burned: and break down it's wall, and it shall be trampled down."

In Isaiah Chapter 5 the Lord describes Israel as His vineyard and Himself as its loving owner. He explains that, as the owner of the vineyard, He "expected" it to yield grapes, but it yielded wild grapes. Then He asks, "What more was there to do for my vineyard that I have not done in it? When I expected it to yield grapes, why did it yield wild grapes?" Because it unexpectedly failed to yeld grapes, the Lord sadly concludes, "I will remove its hedge, and it shall be devoured."

If everything is eternally certain to God as the Calvinist view of foreknowledge holds, how could the Lord twice say that he "expected" one thing to occur, only to have something different occur? ("what more was there to do?") for something He knew from all eternity would never happen? If we take the passage at face value, does it not imply that the future of Israel, the "vineyard" was not certain until they settled it by choosing to yield "wild grapes"?

Albert Finch

http://afministry.ning.com (New Studies Every Day)

[Albert Finch]

"Perfect-being theology," is an approach seeking to build theology out of the initial description of God as perfect. From that secure starting point , it is believed that many othe features of God's character and activity can be logically deduced with certainty.

Calvinists (whether knowingly or otherwise) move across the steppingstones from "God is perfect" to:

God must be in perfect control to,

Perfect control requires determining every detail of reality.

In similar fashioning, we might step from "God's will is perfect" to:

God's will can never change to,

God will never adjust His actions in light of human behaviors.

Each step feels right, since each lies but a short logical step from the next. In other words, a perfect-being approach to creating Christian theology can easily generate a view of sovereignty that eliminates at the outset any possibility of human free agents.

Albert Finch

http://afministry.ning.com (New Studies Every Day)