Socialism's not in the Bible

[~candice~]

Shiloh, are you seriously trying to say that capitalism has a way of supporting those in genuine need aside from free will giving? How????

Taxes. Welfare funding and social security entitlements and even Vocational Rehabilitation programs are entirely funded by the American taxpayer. We pay for that and it is taken from us. We do not "give" it voluntairly. I cannot think of one social program for the needy that is not funded except through our taxes, and we do not have a choice about which we will or will not support. There is nothing "free will" about it.

If a person cannot work, and they don't have money freely given to them, where is this providence coming from?

Taxes.

Capitalism does speak to socialist welfare programs through it's absence. In the pure capitalist economic model there is NO welfare. Welfare is therefore the domain of free will giving, or it is absent.

It is not free will giving at all. I have to pay welfare to illegal immigrants and deadbeats who don't want to work. I have to because it comes from my taxes, money I earned.

Hence the needs of the needy are completely dependent on free will giving under a capitalist economic model.

You can deny it until the cows come home. It is what it is.

Sorry, but you are completely mistaken and really don't understand this at all.

If your taxes are paying for someone else's welfare, THAT'S NOT CAPITALISM.

That is semi-socialism.

Suggesting that the needs of the poor is met in a capitalism society through taxes is self refuting. :cool:

Your current system in America is not pure capitalism.

[~candice~]

The needs of the needy are never met in a capitalist society unless man freely gives without compulsion.

Not so. Welfare and social programs are funded through our taxes, not charity and free-will giving.

If it were the case that your taxes only supported your own welfare, maybe. But that isn't the case. Part of your taxes go towards the welfare of others, including people whose tax contributions come no where near their own welfare payments.

Wrong. My money goes to welfare, but it is not from the goodness of my heart. It is because government-based social programs are funded by taxes I am forced to pay.

I have news for you, Andy. It is only free-will giving if I choose to give it based on my personal choice to give it. When it is my taxes that are used to pay for it, I did not give it of my free-will.

Great, so we agree. Your national economy is not pure capitalism, it is semi-socialist. You current give under obligation, through your taxes, to support the welfare of others.

Capitalism on the other hand, in it's raw form, would not have this tax payer funded welfare for others. It would rely on free will giving.

[Guest shiloh357]

If your taxes are paying for someone else's welfare, THAT'S NOT CAPITALISM.

True, because capitalism is not about funding the needy. It is an economic structure based on supply and demand.

That is semi-socialism.

No, those are simply social programs our government enacted to help those in need.

Suggesting that the needs of the poor is met in a capitalism society through taxes is self refuting.

No it is not. The point is that taxes are not "free-will" giving. It is only free will if the money is given freely by the person who earned it.

[~candice~]

If your taxes are paying for someone else's welfare, THAT'S NOT CAPITALISM.

True, because capitalism is not about funding the needy. It is an economic structure based on supply and demand.

Good! We agree. America's economy isn't based on pure capitalism.

That is semi-socialism.

No, those are simply social programs our government enacted to help those in need.

They are socialist programs. They take your money to give it to someone else. I don't really care what it is called... its funding other people's needs, through taking from others under obligation.

Suggesting that the needs of the poor is met in a capitalism society through taxes is self refuting.

No it is not. The point is that taxes are not "free-will" giving. It is only free will if the money is given freely by the person who earned it.

Err, yes it is. There is no such thing as obligatory taxes to support welfare under the pure capitalist model. Pure capitalism can't support that need through the taxes of others. Infact, pure capitalism doesn't support that need at all. People do, voluntarily, or the need doesn't get met.

[Guest shiloh357]

Great, so we agree. Your national economy is not pure capitalism, it is semi-socialist. You current give under obligation, through your taxes, to support the welfare of others.

Wrong.

If it were "semi-socialist" I would be limited to what I could earn and my earnings and the earnings of everyone else in the country would be divided equally among everyone. Instead of helping the poor, we would all be swimming in the same pool of poverty.

Again, you are operating from a flawed definition of Capitalism. Capitalism and Socialism are two entirely different economic philosophies and the United States is a capitalistic economy. Having programs in place that help the poor through taxes is not socialism.

You are a bit over your head on this, Andy.

Capitalism on the other hand, in it's raw form, would not have this tax payer funded welfare for others. It would rely on free will giving.

How taxes are spent has nothing to do with Capitalism. That is an entirely different issue. Capitalism is simply about how we make money in this country. Capitalism is simply based on the laws of supply and demand. You are confusing issues because you don't know what you are talking about.

[~candice~]

Great, so we agree. Your national economy is not pure capitalism, it is semi-socialist. You current give under obligation, through your taxes, to support the welfare of others.

Wrong.

If it were "semi-socialist" I would be limited to what I could earn and my earnings and the earnings of everyone else in the country would be divided equally among everyone. Instead of helping the poor, we would all be swimming in the same pool of poverty.

Again, you are operating from a flawed definition of Capitalism. Capitalism and Socialism are two entirely different economic philosophies and the United States is a capitalistic economy. Having programs in place that help the poor through taxes is not socialism.

You are a bit over your head on this, Andy.

Call it what you like. Your national economy isn't pure capitalism. I don't care what label you give it.

You currently give under compulsion. That isn't what capitalism is about. The forces of supply and demand are altered by your tax payer funded welfare system whether you want to admit it or not.

Capitalism on the other hand, in it's raw form, would not have this tax payer funded welfare for others. It would rely on free will giving.

How taxes are spent has nothing to do with Capitalism. That is an entirely different issue. Capitalism is simply about how we make money in this country. Capitalism is simply based on the laws of supply and demand. You are confusing issues because you don't know what you are talking about.

Yes it does . Taxes taken to support welfare come from the profits and wages of individuals. You can't take the taxes out of the picture.

[Guest shiloh357]

Good! We agree. America's economy isn't based on pure capitalism.

Yes it is.

They are socialist programs. They take your money to give it to someone else. I don't really care what it is called... its funding other people's needs, through taking from others under obligation.

No, if they were taking MY money, they would be taking the money I earned AFTER taxes.

I owe taxes to the goverenment. If the government uses that money to help the poor, that is not socialism because I still get to earn as much as I want and keep what I earn AFTER taxes.

Socialism says, that my money is not really my money.

Err, yes it is. There is no such thing as obligatory taxes to support welfare under the pure capitalist model. Pure capitalism can't support that need through the taxes of others. Infact, pure capitalism doesn't support that need at all. People do, voluntarily, or the need doesn't get met.

You are simply over your head on this Andy.

America is a capitialist nation and you need to just get used to it. Capitalism is an economic philosophy so naturally, capitalism has nothing to do with helping the poor.

Taxes are not voluntary, so your free-will giving argument falls flat. It is not given freely if the government uses my taxes to pay or it. So long as it only taken from my taxes, it is not socialist. When my earnings suddenly become government property, THEN it becomes socialistic.

[Guest shiloh357]

Call it what you like. Your national economy isn't pure capitalism. I don't care what label you give it.

You currently give under compulsion. That isn't what capitalism is about. The forces of supply and demand are altered by your tax payer funded welfare system whether you want to admit it or not.

I am not forced to give anything under compulsion. I pay my taxes because they are owed, and the government spends it as they see fit. That is not socialistic. Paying for social programs out of taxes is not socialistic. It is when my money AFTER taxes is taken from me and given to someone else, that it becomes socialistic.

And yes, it is pure capitalism.

Taxes taken to support welfare come from the profits and wages of individuals. You can't take the taxes out of the picture.

Yes, taxes. That is my point. Those taxes would be taken and spent on something else if not on welfare. A government cannot cannot survive without taxes. Taxes pay for everything from law enforcement, to good schools, libraries and other programs. Welfare is just one small part of the picture. Taxes are rightfully owed and are not confiscatory. It is when the money I rightfully earned and is rightfullly mine is forceably taken from me and given to someone else that it becomes socialism.

And yes, the US is purely capitalistic, whether your pride can make room for that or not.

[~candice~]

No.

You are forced, under obligation, to pay money in taxes to support welfare for others. The fact that it is taken out of your tax money, instead of post-tax earnings, makes no difference whatsoever. Either way it is forced giving to the government, to support the welfare of others.

Your market may be driven in part by capitalism, but it is not pure capitalism, and cannot be while obligatory taxes support welfare. I don't know why you have such a problem with that definition of capitalism.

You said "capitalism has nothing to do with helping the poor" which is what I have said all along. Under a pure capitalist economy, the poor must be helped by charitable giving ONLY. They are at the mercy of the good will of man.

[Steve_S]

Call it what you like. Your national economy isn't pure capitalism. I don't care what label you give it.

You currently give under compulsion. That isn't what capitalism is about. The forces of supply and demand are altered by your tax payer funded welfare system whether you want to admit it or not.

I am not forced to give anything under compulsion. I pay my taxes because they are owed, and the government spends it as they see fit. That is not socialistic. Paying for social programs out of taxes is not socialistic. It is when my money AFTER taxes is taken from me and given to someone else, that it becomes socialistic.

And yes, it is pure capitalism.

Taxes taken to support welfare come from the profits and wages of individuals. You can't take the taxes out of the picture.

Yes, taxes. That is my point. Those taxes would be taken and spent on something else if not on welfare. A government cannot cannot survive without taxes. Taxes pay for everything from law enforcement, to good schools, libraries and other programs. Welfare is just one small part of the picture. Taxes are rightfully owed and are not confiscatory. It is when the money I rightfully earned and is rightfullly mine is forceably taken from me and given to someone else that it becomes socialism.

And yes, the US is purely capitalistic, whether your pride can make room for that or not.

Actually, the united states does not have pure capitalism. Wealth redistribution by NATURE (welfare, social security, medicare, medicaid, agricultural administration, over 2 trillion yearly combined) prevents pure capitalism from occurring. You have to look at the socioeconomic impact of taking money from one person via taxation and giving it to another, this creates an entirely different area of demand that did not exist before. In a purely capitalistic system (the closest to which I've ever really known of was precolonial america up through the late 1800s/early 1900s) there is no redistribution of wealth. There wasn't an income tax in the United States for the first 120 years of its existence, so yes, countries can survive without taxation.

Also, any market regulation by the government impedes capitalism, as does corporate/small business taxation (ESPECIALLY if the money being taxed is going through redistribution mechanisms such as the aforementioned ones). When the government, for example, puts environmental rules in place which hinders some areas of the economy (mainly industrial) that also hinders capitalism, because it costs a business more to operate than supply side economics dictates (especially in a world with increasingly free/cheap trade where there is competition with countries who do not have similar or any regulations).

In short, when the government taxes the people and uses that tax money for ANYTHING other than common good spending (roads, military, etc.; things that everyone uses or needs equally) then you are straying from capitalism and going towards socialism and communism. It's nice to think that the united states is capitalist, but we really, really aren't. The united states is closer to marx's vision than that of the founding fathers in 2010 (read the 10 planks of communism if you don't believe me).