PGA Posted December 19, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 19, 2012 Thank you Peter for a thought filled post. I am beginning to think that some of the preterits teaching may be valid,but the majority of it leaves me with a spirit i'm not familiar with. It doesn't give me a feeling of peace and joy,it leaves me with a feeling of nothing in the future to hope for.Because I see the world and civilization getting worse, not better as the Bible says the millennial reign will be. My hope is when Jesus returns there will be no more pain and death,no more heart aches,he will finally show people how we are to treat each other and live our lives in a Godly way forever. Hi Enoch, When I started to think this through it was not something I wanted to accept as a possibility. So I kept trying to find holes in the argument from Scripture and then see how Preterism and partial-Preterism answered my questions. The quest began when I read Gary Demar's book, Last Day's Madness - Obsession of the Modern Church, and like others I could not put it down, although I found the implications rather disturbing. I'd never heard of a Preterist or partial-Preterist before or even knew what eschatology meant. I, like you I'm sure, wondered if all these Scriptures concerning Jesus were fulfilled then what did that mean for me as a Christian in today's world? But I also wanted to worship God in spirit and in truth. I wanted to rightly discern what He said. But I was open to finding out more on this way of looking at Scripture to see if it did indeed tie together. Jesus is our peace and joy. He is the same Lord, yesterday, today and forever! Just like the early church, those called out body of believers, are we to not called to fix our thoughts/minds/eyes on Jesus? Is it not reassuring to know He has won the victory over death and Satan. Is it not reassuring to know that Scripture interprets Scripture and that God does not lie; in fact He confirms what He says in history. Are not Christians called to live in the world but not hold to the same standards and values of this world? Is ours not a heavenly home as our final resting place, yet we rest in what Christ has accomplished for us as we live our lives on earth, for even though we are on earth we are spiritually with Him in His kingdom? Like you I see this world as waxing worse. As Christians, in my opinion, we have not done well in presenting our Lord before others. People are skeptical because of all the wolf crying taking place. The last predicted end of the world was 12/12/12. It failed. Harold Camping set two dates earlier this year. Now we wait the Mayan date of 12/21/12. Others wait the soon coming physical return of Christ. Gone are the 1980's, 90's, Y2K and a host of other predictions by Christians of the Lord's coming. The definition of how long the span of that generation that saw Israel become a nation again keeps extending. But what does the modern state of Israel have in common with old covenant Israel? Gone are its temple, its priesthood, its sacrificial system, its genealogies. IMO, what is left is a remnant of its feast days, a shadow of its former glory. Many who inhabit the land are atheists. How does an atheist worship the God of the Bible? My Christian friend at work looks for a double fulfillment of Scripture. He accepts, to some extent, that Jesus may very well have come in judgment of Israel in the first century, but he also sees another fulfillment. I feel he does this because he does not let God's word speak to him as God intended. I could be wrong but I welcome him to demonstrate this from Scripture. Someone once told me something that has stuck with me, and I use it when I listen to what a person says to understand his/her world-view. Here is what stuck with me: If you want to find out what a person believes find out who influences them. How did this idea that Daniel's 70 weeks had a gap in them come from? Did the Spirit not inspire the author Daniel to say, seventy sevens are decreed for your people? Yes, but...yes, but... Did Jesus not say that 'this generation' not 'that generation.' Yes, but..yes, but... Did He not say that some standing here, with Him in the first century would not taste death, but see Him come in His Kingdom and in His Father's glory with His angels? Yes, but...yes, but... Did the writers of the epistles/letters to the churches not say to their brothers in these different churches that it was the last hour, that Jesus was coming soon, and so on and so forth? Did He not tell His disciples that the gospel of the kingdom would be preached in all the earth and then the end would come? Did Paul not say to those 1st century people that these things were written down as warnings for US, on whom the end of the ages HAS come. Did Peter not say that God fearing Jews from every nation under heaven heard the message in his own language concerning what what was foretold by the prophet Joel - 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people' and then after quoting Joel Peter addresses them as 'Men of Israel?' Acts 2:33-40 New International Version (NIV) 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’[a] 36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” Footnotes:Acts 2:35 Psalm 110:1 Do you see how it all ties into their times? Jesus is in heaven, pouring out what they see and hear, waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool, and these people, these Jews understand and fear because they know they are guilty and have been His enemy. They crucified Him, they're cut to the heart and many of them repent and receive forgiveness for their sins. Peter in His warning tells them to save themselves from THIS corrupt generation (Dt. 32:5), the same warning that Jesus had proclaimed to THIS generation. I find it interesting that Stephen, just before he is stoned to death issues a similar warning to these Jews. Stephen goes into the history of this rebellious people and their covenant with God, from Moses a prophet and mediator who is a foreshadow of the ultimate Prophet and Mediator - "God will send you a prophet like me from your own people." (Acts 7:37) Over and over Stephen warns them, just as God warned their forefathers to obey and not reject Him after they had made that first covenant with Him. Acts 7:39-53 New International Version (NIV) 39 “But our ancestors refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt. 40 They told Aaron, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who led us out of Egypt—we don’t know what has happened to him!’[a] 41 That was the time they made an idol in the form of a calf. They brought sacrifices to it and reveled in what their own hands had made. 42 But God turned away from them and gave them over to the worship of the sun, moon and stars. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: “‘Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the wilderness, people of Israel? 43 You have taken up the tabernacle of Molek and the star of your god Rephan, the idols you made to worship. Therefore I will send you into exile’[b] beyond Babylon. 44 “Our ancestors had the tabernacle of the covenant law with them in the wilderness. It had been made as God directed Moses, according to the pattern he had seen. 45 After receiving the tabernacle, our ancestors under Joshua brought it with them when they took the land from the nations God drove out before them. It remained in the land until the time of David, 46 who enjoyed God’s favor and asked that he might provide a dwelling place for the God of Jacob.[c] 47 But it was Solomon who built a house for him. 48 “However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says: 49 “‘Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me? says the Lord. Or where will my resting place be? 50 Has not my hand made all these things?’[d] 51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52 Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.” Footnotes:Acts 7:40 Exodus 32:1Acts 7:43 Amos 5:25-27 (see Septuagint)Acts 7:46 Some early manuscripts the house of JacobActs 7:50 Isaiah 66:1,2 There are many glaring comments here, but I will just focus extremely briefly on the underlined or comments I have highlighted in red, for I want to give you a glimpse of how Scripture ties together on different aspects. First you see how the 1st century old covenant Israel were just like their ancestors. They continued to reject God. You see the focus of much in the NT when you start to pay attention to who is being addressed. You see their ancestors perishing in the desert, just like these 1st century Jews were in danger of doing, the difference being that before God led them into the Promised Land He first made a covenant with them - a covenant that they were unable to keep. Here in the 1st century God again is making a better covenant with those who will put their trust in Jesus. For those that would not, they too would perish in the wilderness of unbelief and never enter His Promised Land - the true land, not the copy - the heavenly land (see Hebrews 11). Forty years they wandered, and here is another generation wandering forty years and most again not entering that land, that rest. Their ancestors had the tabernacle of the covenant with them, just like these Jews had the tabernacle of the covenant with them - Jesus, who dwelt in bodily form amongst them. Hebrews 3-4 warns the ones who had made a profession of faith in Jesus not to turn back because the covenant He made was better than the one made by their ancestors. Luke, the author of Acts, goes onto say that Solomon built a 'house' for the Lord. This is significant because in Hebrews we get the same terminology in Hebrews 3 and also in the gospel of Matthew 23 where Jesus said He would leave their house desolate. Also significant is that the author goes on to explain that God does not live in man made houses, but that HEAVEN is His throne, the very place where Jesus was seated shortly after His resurrection. Where there is a throne there is a king and a kingdom. That kingdom was near in the 1st century. Jesus told His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them and He would come back and take them to be with Him where He was. I believe that happened before A.D. 70. We see the Son of Man ascending to the right hand of the Father where He is given dominion of people from every nation and tongue under earth and we see this heavenly scene unfold in Daniel 7:13-14 and Revelation 5 and throughout other parts of Revelation. One other thing I would like to bring to your attention for now. That is verse 52. Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? This is a theme Jesus brought up in Matthew 23:29-38 and John in Revelation at various times. The reason it is so important to notice this is because it all ties into the great city that persecuted the blood of the saints and prophets (i.e., Rev. 18:21, 24) and can hence only be Jerusalem - no other - Scripture tells us so. In A.D. 70 old covenant Jerusalem existed no more. The Law was fulfilled in Jesus and God was making certain that the old covenant rules and regulations that atoned for the sins of the people could no longer be met in that old covenant, or as Hebrews 8:13 puts it, it passed away because it was old and obsolete and God had made a better provision for sin - an everlasting provision for those who would believe. I can go on and on with examples upon examples, but time is ticking and I need sleep shortly. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted December 19, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 19, 2012 P.S. Enoch, My hope is when Jesus returns there will be no more pain and death,no more heart aches,he will finally show people how we are to treat each other and live our lives in a Godly way forever.-Enoch We are on a journey to our Father's house in heaven and we are part of His Son's kingdom even as we walk this earth now. The church is His body on the earth, the New Israel of God, not like the old covenant Israel. that was also a shadow, a typology of what was coming in Christ. It all points to Him! Is that not exciting? IMO, no death and pain is already the case for those who are in heaven in His presence right now and have been there since the 1st century. For them there is no more pain or suffering. Spiritually is this not the case for those who are in Christ Jesus? Are we not blessed with Christ right now in the heavenly realms? Are we not counted dead in Christ like they were? Galatians 2:19-21 New International Version (NIV) 19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”[a] Footnotes:Galatians 2:21 Some interpreters end the quotation after verse 14. Are we not dead to the law in Christ? Did He not set us free? Did He not meet it fully? That is a question that I keep asking others to answer in this thread - Matthew 5:17-18. Apparently some do not feel so. If that is the case that we are not dead to the law then what kind of works are required of us? And by making this comment I'm not saying that what is required by the law is bad - no, it's good - it's just that we do not have the ability apart from Christ to meet God's perfect standard. Old Covenant Israel is a prime example of this. What letter of the law do we still need to fulfill in/on our own merit? No, in Christ we are under grace, we are new creations in the New Covenant heaven and earth and God has given us a heart to believe. That does not give license to sin for we are under grace. If you love someone your heart is to please them. 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 New International Version (NIV) 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! Footnotes:2 Corinthians 5:17 Or Christ, that person is a new creation. Spiritually speaking, the old has gone in Christ. We are not part of it in Christ. We are new in Christ. And physically, the old covenant, the old world, is gone although the two worlds existed side by side until A.D 70, the old went completely in A.D. 70. Our citizenship as believers is in heaven, in the New Jerusalem! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bader Posted December 19, 2012 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 27 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/16/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 19, 2012 The key to understanding eschatology is primarily in how the timeline affects the Scriptures and moreover, what Jesus said would (and did) happen. First, we need to remember what the word eschatology means. Study of last things. Eschatos means last, specifically, last in order. If I list 1.2.3.4.5, the number 5 is eschatos. So when a biblical figure speaks of last, he's not necessarily referring to the parousia. Likewise with the words 'end' and 'world'. For example the phrase in the KJV used in Matthew 24 'end of the world' is actually end of the age (aeon). Sometimes, it's difficult to gather whether the Parousia or simply the end of an age is being spoken of. Parable of the Marriage Feast 1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 �The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 �And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4 �Again he sent out other slaves saying, �Tell those who have been invited, �Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.�� 5 �But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 �But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8 �Then he said to his slaves, �The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 �Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.� 10 �Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11 �But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he said to him, �Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?� And the man was speechless. 13 �Then the king said to the servants, �Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.� 14 �For many are called, but few are chosen.� From the context we can derive: Israel was the one invited to the wedding feast. Jesus tells us 'they were unwilling to come.' The inviting king is God. The servants are the prophets and apostles. The prophets (and later the apostles and saints) were mistreated and killed. God sent His armies, destroyed the murderers and set their city on fire. God then sends out his servants to gather in all kinds of people. Then finally God judges the dinner guests and casts out the unfit. This is an eschatological parable and alludes to the coming destruction of Jerusalem, the subsequent gathering of the nations and then the last (judgment) day. In Mt 23:27-39, Jesus castigates the Scribes and Pharisees 27"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. 29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? 34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38"Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39"For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'" This prophecy refers strictly to the destruction of Jerusalem. (When Jesus uses the name of the city here, he seems to be using it much the same way as we do when we say "Washington did so and so," using the name of the city to refer to the government seated there, in this case, the Sanhedrin.) The destruction of Jerusalem signifies the end of the age of types and shadows and the beginning of the Messianic era with truths and realities realized in and through the Lord Jesus. Notice the stark stern statement in v 36: ALL THESE THINGS WILL COME UPON THIS GENERATION (the one to whom he was speaking). Luke 21 is the Mt 24 parallel passage which is much plainer concerning Jerusalem and her fate. Both are eschatological to the end of the age and both give a timeline. 1. Persecution first (another parallel to this is Rev 13 the beast making war on the saints for 3.5 times [years]) which was the Neronic persecution 64-68 AD 2. False Christs saying that they are THE Christ. 3. Then wars and rumors of wars: Civil war in Rome after the death of Nero 4. Nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom; Unrest through the whole Empire 5. Earthquakes, plagues and famines and signs in the heavens (basically he hints at what he reveals totally to John in Revelation) 6. The siege of Jerusalem and the days of vengeance as the city is trampled by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled 7. The Son of Man coming on a cloud with great power and much glory It's the last phrase which leads a lot of people to believe that this means the Parousia (Second Coming). It doesn't, and there are firm reasons why it doesn't. Reason #1: Jesus uses a totally different word for coming...erchomai, which can mean either come OR go, and furthermore can mean to establish or make something known (in this case, that He is Messiah, a fact established by His actions). Reason #2: There are survivors of the event. At the Second Coming, there are no survivors, the earth and all of its works are burned up (2 Peter 3:10, Rev 20:9) Reason #3: There are things which occur after this shekinah-glory cloud appearing. The LORD is showing himself strong and mighty here, not destroying the former earth. He's about to make his enemies his footstool (Ps. 110) Reason #4: It would be THAT GENERATION which would see all the things He spoke of come to pass. He spoke all of the dire warnings to those who would be affected by them in the time-span of that generation. A mere 40 years or so after He spoke those words, IT ALL CAME TO PASS. A full preterist will try to make the argument that the AD 70 events constituted the Second Coming. The Greek words and the events which take place in 70 AD don't bear that out though. There IS a Second Coming, and it occurs after the Millennium, the Second Coming and Judgment Day are the same event. To Believers, it's gathering together to Jesus, a completion of the Body of Christ. To the Unbelievers, it's fire falling from the sky to burn up everything and a date with a God in whom they refused to believe upon, a look at the Devil they followed and a consignment to the Lake of Fire with that Devil and all the fallen angels. To Believers, it's a judgment of reward or no reward followed by eternal life (I Cor 3), to Unbelievers it's a judgment of works followed by eternal death. Thanks for the translation of the word eschatology, but we also need the translation of that long greek word which is misleading to call it the 'second coming because jesus comes 'near' unseen by the world before He comes in sight of all. AD 70 is no where near the end of the prohecies and it was judgment for jerusalem only not the world opposed the christwhen he comes as king of kings. If I recall right the word parosia, spelling wrong, means 'to receive near'. The excat terms are in scripture but unfortunatekly people stay suck in the mindtracks of popular preaching and the holy spirit is over-ruled to evryones loss. Jsus talked about havingo go away but would come again, JOHN 14:3 adds to john 13:33, it's too much for me to type it all out sorry please look it up, in esence jesus had to go away to the father after the resurrectiuon but not for long. the reason they couldnt go was he hadnt sent the holy Spirirt, which he was going away for. from verse 3to 4 he is saying when the Spirit is come then we will undestndnwhere he went and where he is, ie in the father on ahis R hand, that we also may be there in Him, not in a mansion!. Now we get into the key part in chap 15 verse 16 to 18, you have to prevent the tapes from p;laying back with all the old repeats of what has been taght to hear what the Spirit is saying. God provided His Spirit to gide us into all truth , not a memory to over ride the spirit because your mind replays what people have said that they did not hear fromthe spirit. revelation bythe spirit of the word is the rock, the sure word of prophecy, the church is built on. not popular preachers.so 16 says the spirit abides forever, he dwells in us representing the father and son, since we are in christ in the father, in v18 jesus catigoricallysays he will come to us, if we 'receive hin near' the world not seeing this. So on the day of pentiucost The spirit is the 'vehicle' by which jesus came to the body so we are in him,the tonge of fire rested on everyone, you are not excluded, in the father and the order for this is following water baptism, this whole operation was messed up by the obsession with tongues. the evidence of the holy Spirit is him reveling the spirit of the word his essential role, because jesus said he would build his church on this. jesus is the 'fulness of the God head bodily and what he has said in these scriptures repeats this as his funess is shared personally with everyone of us, that's your heritage and mine, and every born again christian should have been taught this. This subject is the longest dsiscourse i believe that jesus made yet no one teachers it and very clerly jesus went to great pains to explain why he was going away , because his leaving wass via the cross and that would be traumatic for them, and he said the spirit would bring what he said their memory in understandingafter he came.He spoke for three chapters and the the 4th,the17th chapter he prayed for its fulfillment which came at penticost. Since jesus gave this great privilege to us each one , it is our personal responsibility to know the truthand not just sit in a pew and play tape-recorders. the price paid was too high for such a blessing. MY spelling ns typing are rough but i have had a stroke and got off lightly.Be blessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted December 20, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Peter it seems to me if the first resurrection and second coming happened in 70 AD somebody would have written about it. I would think that, if such a thing happened today,the talk of it would be recorded world wide. I think it would have spread the known world in 70 AD also. Right now in my studies of the Word I have to hold on to the hope of a resurrection and second coming in the future. Like always it is a pleasure to speak with you Peter. Lets both keep studying and maybe one day we will know for sure . Enoch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted December 20, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 20, 2012 Peter it seems to me if the first resurrection and second coming happened in 70 AD somebody would have written about it. I would think that, if such a thing happened today,the talk of it would be recorded world wide. I think it would have spread the known world in 70 AD also. Right now in my studies of the Word I have to hold on to the hope of a resurrection and second coming in the future. Like always it is a pleasure to speak with you Peter. Lets both keep studying and maybe one day we will know for sure . Enoch Hi Enoch, Thanks for engaging in this debate! Considering on how many of the people He came to save doubted He was the Messiah or refused to believe in Him is it that surprising? Considering that only one of the twelve, to my knowledge, was alive in A.D.70, and exiled on the remote island of Patmos according to Justin Martyr and others; considering that a handful of believers preaching the gospel transformed the world had to deal with savage wolves and a lot of schisms that continued after their death, that much of the literature from that period is lost to us today, considering that there are so many interpretations of Scripture today on this very subject and have been through the ages, that the language of Revelation and much of the old and new testaments is not always literal, but figurative or shadows and types that all point to Jesus, that people believe what they want to believe the surest plum-line we have is God's word rightly interpreted. As I type this I'm watching a program called I Prophesy/The Future Revealed in which Sir Isaac Newton's calculations are being examined and in which he predicted the year 2060 as the date for the world to end. He disagreed with the doomsday prophets of his own age so he set his own date. This date setting has been with us since the Lord's resurrection, but what we are doing today, IMO, is removing the biblical context and projecting it into our age, our headlines. So now we have planes, tanks, helicopters instead of horses and swords and places/countries that no longer exist as Russia and Iran and China and the USA, all in the name of a literal interpretation. We have the Roman Catholic Church and the pope as the anti-Christ or the European Union and some world leader as the beast or Rome as the Great City, all in the name of a literal interpretation. But it does not fit God's revelation. Scripture interprets itself. With the Olivet Discourse we have Jesus' own words as to when the end would be. All these signs that He gave can be found as happening as the writers who wrote the epistles and gospels, inspired by the Spirit, are living. Let me give you two examples, although there are hundreds, if not thousands to choose from. Matthew 24:3-14 New International Version (NIV) 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. So the disciples come to Him privately after they have left the temple and ask Him in relation to the previous context with the teachers of the law and Pharisees and in relation to where they are and the stones being thrown down, 1) when will this be, 2) what will be the sign of His coming, and 3) the end of the age. Jesus tells them, 'Watch out that no one deceives YOU. Why are we trying to remove this context to fit the 21st century? It is plain He was addressing them and other Scripture backs this up in giving us the proper interpretation. Notice the two red highlighted verses in Matthew 24. One deals with persecution and the other with the end of the age. Now when does Scripture reveal this to be? Matthew 10:5-23 New International Version (NIV) 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. 9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. When you compare the context of this chapter with chapter 24 noted above you find many similarities and they all have to do with these first century believers, not us 21 centuries removed, although as believers in Christ we also received persecution and trials like they did that refine our faith. But in this passage we see that, just as Jesus said in Matthew 24, it would be them who would suffer persecution. Matthew, inspired by the Holy Spirit, said that they would not finish going through all the towns of Israel before Jesus came again. When you read Acts or the epistles take note of how many times it shows these disciples and brothers in Christ suffering persecution and calling out to God, 'How long O Lord?' in their day, not ours. Also notice that Jesus said in Matthew 24 that the gospel would be preached in all the earth and then the end would come. How many times in the NT does it confirm this very thing - that the Scriptures had gone out into all the earth? I know of five different times from memory. Is that not enough? Acts 2:5-11; Romans 1:8 and 10:18; Colossians 1:6 and 1:23. And since Jesus appeared in the flesh during the time of the fourth kingdom that is revealed in Daniel 2 and during that kingdom God would set up His everlasting kingdom I find that Luke 2:1 is also revealing. It says: Luke 2:1 New International Version (NIV) The Birth of Jesus 2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. This world is where these disciples/apostles witnessed in. It is the world of the fourth kingdom in which God would set up His everlasting kingdom. It is where the Jews were scattered. I'm out of time. Best wishes and blessings in Christ Jesus! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted December 20, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,586 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,443 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Shalom, ENOCH2010. Thank you Peter for a thought filled post. I am beginning to think that some of the preterits teaching may be valid,but the majority of it leaves me with a spirit i'm not familiar with. It doesn't give me a feeling of peace and joy,it leaves me with a feeling of nothing in the future to hope for.Because I see the world and civilization getting worse, not better as the Bible says the millennial reign will be. My hope is when Jesus returns there will be no more pain and death,no more heart aches,he will finally show people how we are to treat each other and live our lives in a Godly way forever. While some of the teachings of preterists are good, particularly in how they deal with portions of the Olivet Discourse, please don't "throw the baby out with the bath water." They are most definitely NOT right when it comes to the future events ALSO predicted in Yeshua`s Olivet Discourse! While many of the verses in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 were directly addressed to His students standing/sitting right there with Him on the Har haZeitiym (the Mount of Olives), there were portions that CHANGED PRONOUNS as His vision projected into the future! To say that these portions were fulfilled in some way in the past is a stretch for the preterists, and they must resort to an allegorical interpretation in order to "see" them fulfilled in the past. A partial preterist point of view is better. I'm not saying that I believe in an established Partial Preterist viewpoint, but I'm saying that if one just reads through the passages normally, especially after harmonizing them in the Greek FIRST before translation into English, one will get the sense of BOTH time periods, not just the past. May the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) guide you in your studies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted December 20, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted December 20, 2012 2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Why would this overthrow the faith of some? Because our hope is to take part in this resurrection when it happens and to then rule and reign with Christ 1000 years. Those who partake in the 'first' resurrection have a gaurentee that the second death can have no power over them. Therefore, there is great recompense of reward for desiring to be found worthy of partaking in it. God have mercy upon those who are teaching that it has past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 . The church is His body on the earth, the New Israel of God, not like the old covenant Israel. that was also a shadow, a typology of what was coming in Christ. It all points to Him! Is that not exciting? It is not only unexciting, it is false teaching. The Bible NEVER spiritualizes "Israel" to mean the church. Israel is NEVER a type of the Church in Scripture. it was that kind of false teaching that was at the heart of the early church's persecution of the Jews. it is called "Replacement Theology" and is a lie born out Hell. I am sorry that an otherwise intelligent and articulate person like yourself has been led to believe in that kind of theological drivel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted December 21, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Shalom, ENOCH2010. Thank you Peter for a thought filled post. I am beginning to think that some of the preterits teaching may be valid,but the majority of it leaves me with a spirit i'm not familiar with. It doesn't give me a feeling of peace and joy,it leaves me with a feeling of nothing in the future to hope for.Because I see the world and civilization getting worse, not better as the Bible says the millennial reign will be. My hope is when Jesus returns there will be no more pain and death,no more heart aches,he will finally show people how we are to treat each other and live our lives in a Godly way forever. While some of the teachings of preterists are good, particularly in how they deal with portions of the Olivet Discourse, please don't "throw the baby out with the bath water." They are most definitely NOT right when it comes to the future events ALSO predicted in Yeshua`s Olivet Discourse! While many of the verses in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 were directly addressed to His students standing/sitting right there with Him on the Har haZeitiym (the Mount of Olives), there were portions that CHANGED PRONOUNS as His vision projected into the future! To say that these portions were fulfilled in some way in the past is a stretch for the preterists, and they must resort to an allegorical interpretation in order to "see" them fulfilled in the past. A partial preterist point of view is better. I'm not saying that I believe in an established Partial Preterist viewpoint, but I'm saying that if one just reads through the passages normally, especially after harmonizing them in the Greek FIRST before translation into English, one will get the sense of BOTH time periods, not just the past. May the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) guide you in your studies. No need to worry Roy,I am firmly grounded in my belief of a millennial reign and then an eternity with our Lord here on the new Earth. I still desire alot of help from the Holy Spirit in my studies and I truly try to keep an open, and a teachable mind. The way I see the 70th week, if we actually have the whole week ahead of us, it appears that some of it will be a repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted December 21, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2012 2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Why would this overthrow the faith of some? Because our hope is to take part in this resurrection when it happens and to then rule and reign with Christ 1000 years. Those who partake in the 'first' resurrection have a gaurentee that the second death can have no power over them. Therefore, there is great recompense of reward for desiring to be found worthy of partaking in it. God have mercy upon those who are teaching that it has past. Hi Gary, Here again you take a passage that is specifically addressing Timothy concerning1st century Hymenaeus and Philetus and stretch it into the 21st century. 2 Timothy 2:16-18 New International Version (NIV) 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 1 Timothy 1:18-20 New International Version (NIV) The Charge to Timothy Renewed 18 Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. Simply put, the Hymenaean Heresy claimed the resurrection was past, before the time it was meant to happen. They were preaching that Christ had already come when He had not. What I find significant is that if they believed the resurrection had passed then they believed it was not a physical event. I also believe that they were Judaizers who clung to the OT, such as in Acts 15. Why would this overthrow the faith of some? Because our hope is to take part in this resurrection when it happens and to then rule and reign with Christ 1000 years. -Gary Because just like the author of Hebrews warned (Chapter 2:1; 6:1-6; 10:37-38), they were influencing people to turn back to the works of Judaism. Those who partake in the 'first' resurrection have a gaurentee that the second death can have no power over them. -Gary What I feel you fail to realize is that the time of the resurrection was a time of Israel's resurrection. Jesus came to 1st century Israel preaching the kingdom was near and the harvest fields were ripe. The harvest was the resurrection/kingdom/judgment for Israel. I can show you literally dozens of Scriptures that show Jesus came to His own people, Israel of the old covenant. Can we agree on this one statement at least Daniel 12:1-7 New International Version (NIV) The End Times 12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.” 5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?” 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.[b] When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.” Footnotes: Daniel 12:3 Or who impart wisdomDaniel 12:7 Or a year, two years and half a year A few things for you to notice here - it is a time of Daniel's people, it's a time of great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of nations up 'til then, it is a time of righteousness for some and judgment for others, a time when the book is opened as it is in Revelation 20:11-12 and elsewhere. It is a time of RESURRECTION when multitudes who are dead will arise, some to everlasting life and others to everlasting judgment, and finally, it is a time when the power (the covenant they had made between themselves and God was their power) of the holy people will be shattered. Daniel 9 presents another angle of the same timeline. There are so many similarities that can be noted between the two chapters that I think it would be hard to argue that they were discussing different events/times. Luke 21:20-26 New International Version (NIV) 20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. Again, we have similar language to Daniel 9 and 12 and Jesus actually refers the reader to Daniel in His discourse. Jerusalem is surrounded by armies and made desolate, just us as Jesus said would take place in that generation and it is a time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written and it is against THIS people - Israel of the old covenant, the world of types and shadows of what was the final reality; heaven, true Israel, true children of Abraham and of God, children of the free woman, not the slave, the seed of promise with the better city, the better covenant Mount Zion, not Mount Sinai (Gal. 4:21-31). I keep getting accused of allegory and trying to spiritualize everything, but is this not what Galatians 4 doesÉ Is it not what Hebrews doesÉ So it is a time of Israel`s judgment and Israel`s resurrection and the coming of the kingdom that would never be destroyed. Luke 17:20-25 New International Version (NIV) The Coming of the Kingdom of God 20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”[a] 22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day[b] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. Footnotes: Luke 17:21 Or is within youLuke 17:24 Some manuscripts do not have in his day. Again, the language of Scripture is plain. Jesus would be rejected by this generation. The kingdom would come, but its coming is not something that would be observed even though it would be in their midst. He tells His disciples that many are going to come in His name, and we see other Scriptures making reference to this in the Book of Acts and epistles. I contend that when His kingdom came, the resurrection also took place. The Jews did not reject the offer of Jesus establishing the kingdom. They were looking for Him to establish the kingdom. What they rejected was the nature of the kingdom. Romans 6 is a picture of the resurrection. Just as they died in Christ so they are resurrected in Christ. We are united with Him in His resurrection, our old selves crucified with Him so that our old bodies may be done away with. Are you also not a new creation in ChristÉ Do you count yourself dead to sin but alive to Christ, brought from death to lifeÉ Colossians 3:1-4 New International Version (NIV) Living as Those Made Alive in Christ 3 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. I believe that those 1st century believers are resurrected with Christ in glory and when we as believers shed our earthly body we also go to be with Him in glory. I`m running out of time and I want to send one more post. P.S. For some reason every time I try to form a question mark I get a É Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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