Pre-Trib Rapture... Here Are Big Time Evidence

[Guest LCPGUY]

Dad, God bless you,

but this discussion/debate will go nowhere but to divide us. You bring up to many symbolic and allegorical things from the OT especially. They have nothing to do with the rapture, God

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings LCPGUY,

You made the suggestion, I supplied the answer. NOW you can't/won't respond. I didn't speak in a lot of symbols or allegories, I gave you plain definitions SCRIPTURAL DEFINITIONS of what Tribulation and God's Wrath means ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES. How about providing YOUR OWN then FROM the scriptures?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Trinity,

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (REVELATION 3:10)

Greek for KEEP:

5083 tereo {tay-reh'-o}

from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to 2334); TDNT - 8:140,1174; v

AV - keep 57, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1,

hold fast 1; 75

1) to attend to carefully, take care of

1a) to guard

1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is

1c) to observe

1d) to reserve: to undergo something

Greek for FROM:

1537 ek {ek} or ex {ex}

a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative;; prep

AV - of 367, from 181, out of 162, by 55, on 34, with 25, misc 97; 921

1) out of, from, by, away from

This correlates quite well with:

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1545 ekbasis {ek'-bas-is}

from a compound of 1537 and the base of 939 (meaning to go out);; n f

AV - way of escape 1, end 1; 2

1) an egress, way out, exit

1a) applied figuratively to the way of escape from temptation

2) the issue referring to the end of one's life

2a) Heb 13:7 refers not only to end of physical life, but the

manner in which they closed a well spent life as exhibited

by their spirit in dying

This verse has NOTHING to do with the RAPTURE.

Scripture says TO TEST THOSE WHO LIVE ON THE EARTH so that includes GENTILES as well. The promise to keep believers from the hour of trial was to the Philadelphia which served as a type to the true Church which will be raptured before the Tribulation. The HOUR OF TRIAL is the seven-year Tribulation and it is usually referred to DAY OF GOD'S VENGEANCE (Isaiah 34:8), DAY OF WRATH (Zephaniah 1:15), and THE DAY OF THE LORD (1 Thessalonians 5:2) as well as numerous other names and descriptions. In 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 its called THE COMING WRATH. Paul said, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." This is another proof that the Church will be KEPT FROM THE HOUR. Jesus will rescue the Church from the coming wrath. This is evident by the events in Revelation 4 - 5 preceding the beginning of the Tribulation which occurs in Revelation 6. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 says, "For God did not appoint us to wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." God never appointed the Church to wrath. It is true that God has ordained suffering to befall on the common believer to purify him and purge him of his dealings with the world and lusts of the flesh and to rely on God for security (Romans 8:17; 2 Timothy 2:12; Philippians 1:29). BUT THE WRATH OF GOD IS RESERVED FOR UNBELIEVERS. NOT TO HIS BRIDE - THE CHURCH! Romans 5:9 says, "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!" The provision for believers to be saved from God's wrath which is the 7 year Tribulation is the RAPTURE which is before the Tribulation which makes it a guaranteed BLESSED HOPE!

HERE IS THE JUDGEMENT REVEALED AGAINST THE UNGODLY BABYLON:

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Revelation 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Read my post to LCPGUY on the definitions of Tribulation AND God's Wrath.

Now what really blows me away is that Jesus DID NOT ESCAPE, the Apostles DID NOT ESCAPE, from the first Christians to now, all the martyrs DID NOT ESCAPE, nor does the multitudes of Christians in Revelation ESCAPE. This literally means that millions, perhaps billions who have read the Bible from the time it was first written to the very end DID NOT ESCAPE, yet you think that those living in those last days WILL ESCAPE? This is absurd. Our BLESSED HOPE is the RESURRECTION - NOT THE RAPTURE.

Another thing, the word RAPTURE, is the "catching up of THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN". This is talking about a REMNANT, a very small number that were NOT slain by the Beast, and yet this HIDEOUS DOCTRINE OF A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE is being taught to the multitudes of living Christians, when it is clear that ONLY A FEW shall survive to go up in the rapture WHICH TAKES PLACE AFTER THE RESURRECTION. I personally want to go in the RESURRECTION, because I do NOT want to be LEFT BEHIND, even for the rapture.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[senerhu]

Now what really blows me away is that Jesus DID NOT ESCAPE, the Apostles DID NOT ESCAPE, from the first Christians to now, all the martyrs DID NOT ESCAPE, nor does the multitudes of Christians in Revelation ESCAPE. This literally means that millions, perhaps billions who have read the Bible from the time it was first written to the very end DID NOT ESCAPE, yet you think that those living in those last days WILL ESCAPE? This is absurd. Our BLESSED HOPE is the RESURRECTION - NOT THE RAPTURE.

ernie, you are twisting Scripture here. Jesus "did not escape" for a reason, to fulfill prophecy. You might want to stop distorting Scripture here to prove your "point".

[rollinTHUNDER]

Greetings Trinity,

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (REVELATION 3:10)

Greek for KEEP:

5083 tereo {tay-reh'-o}

from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to 2334); TDNT - 8:140,1174; v

AV - keep 57, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1,

hold fast 1; 75

1) to attend to carefully, take care of

1a) to guard

1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is

1c) to observe

1d) to reserve: to undergo something

Greek for FROM:

1537 ek {ek} or ex {ex}

a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative;; prep

AV - of 367, from 181, out of 162, by 55, on 34, with 25, misc 97; 921

1) out of, from, by, away from

This correlates quite well with:

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1545 ekbasis {ek'-bas-is}

from a compound of 1537 and the base of 939 (meaning to go out);; n f

AV - way of escape 1, end 1; 2

1) an egress, way out, exit

1a) applied figuratively to the way of escape from temptation

2) the issue referring to the end of one's life

2a) Heb 13:7 refers not only to end of physical life, but the

manner in which they closed a well spent life as exhibited

by their spirit in dying

This verse has NOTHING to do with the RAPTURE.

Scripture says TO TEST THOSE WHO LIVE ON THE EARTH so that includes GENTILES as well. The promise to keep believers from the hour of trial was to the Philadelphia which served as a type to the true Church which will be raptured before the Tribulation. The HOUR OF TRIAL is the seven-year Tribulation and it is usually referred to DAY OF GOD'S VENGEANCE (Isaiah 34:8), DAY OF WRATH (Zephaniah 1:15), and THE DAY OF THE LORD (1 Thessalonians 5:2) as well as numerous other names and descriptions. In 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 its called THE COMING WRATH. Paul said, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." This is another proof that the Church will be KEPT FROM THE HOUR. Jesus will rescue the Church from the coming wrath. This is evident by the events in Revelation 4 - 5 preceding the beginning of the Tribulation which occurs in Revelation 6. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 says, "For God did not appoint us to wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." God never appointed the Church to wrath. It is true that God has ordained suffering to befall on the common believer to purify him and purge him of his dealings with the world and lusts of the flesh and to rely on God for security (Romans 8:17; 2 Timothy 2:12; Philippians 1:29). BUT THE WRATH OF GOD IS RESERVED FOR UNBELIEVERS. NOT TO HIS BRIDE - THE CHURCH! Romans 5:9 says, "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!" The provision for believers to be saved from God's wrath which is the 7 year Tribulation is the RAPTURE which is before the Tribulation which makes it a guaranteed BLESSED HOPE!

HERE IS THE JUDGEMENT REVEALED AGAINST THE UNGODLY BABYLON:

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Revelation 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Read my post to LCPGUY on the definitions of Tribulation AND God's Wrath.

Now what really blows me away is that Jesus DID NOT ESCAPE, the Apostles DID NOT ESCAPE, from the first Christians to now, all the martyrs DID NOT ESCAPE, nor does the multitudes of Christians in Revelation ESCAPE. This literally means that millions, perhaps billions who have read the Bible from the time it was first written to the very end DID NOT ESCAPE, yet you think that those living in those last days WILL ESCAPE? This is absurd. Our BLESSED HOPE is the RESURRECTION - NOT THE RAPTURE.

Another thing, the word RAPTURE, is the "catching up of THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN". This is talking about a REMNANT, a very small number that were NOT slain by the Beast, and yet this HIDEOUS DOCTRINE OF A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE is being taught to the multitudes of living Christians, when it is clear that ONLY A FEW shall survive to go up in the rapture WHICH TAKES PLACE AFTER THE RESURRECTION. I personally want to go in the RESURRECTION, because I do NOT want to be LEFT BEHIND, even for the rapture.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Come on now, DE!

Why search for the greek in such common words? You're dividing the phrase words to diminish the true meaning here. It's as plain as day what it means, which is exactly what it says.

This is the equivalent of finding the greek for :

A - and - the - to, etc., etc.....

Fish ain't bitin' DE, but nice try.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings,

The following was posted to this board a while back by another. Please read it and consider:

Rev 3:10

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.(KJV)

This section of the verse, "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation", is widely used by some to validate their claim that the church is taken out before the Great Tribulation. They teach that the word "from" in the Greek (ek), means "out of," and on that they get their theory that the church will be "taken out" prior to the Great Tribulation.

Take note what is said in the Vincent's New Testament Word Studies about this:

[From the hour] [ek (grk 1537)]. The preposition implies, not a keeping "from" temptation, but a keeping "in" temptation, as the result of which they shall be delivered "out of" its power. Compare (John 17:15)

Here it is seen that the word ek implies, not a keeping "from" temptation, but a keeping "in" temptation, as the result of which they shall be delivered "out of" its power.

Take note also of what is said in the Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary:

[From], [ek (grk 1537), not apo (grk 575)]-- ` (so as to deliver thee) out of, ' not to exempt from temptation.

Here "from" is referred to as "not to exempt from temptation." In other words, "from" is not to be translated "out of" temptation, but a keeping "in" temptation.

Let's take a look at the word "keep" in this verse.

The basic rendering of this word is:

to attend to carefully, to take care of; to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon); to keep, one in the state in which he is; to preserve.

Barnes put it this way:

"[i also will keep thee] That is, I will so keep you that you shall not sink under the trials which will prove a severe temptation to many. This does not mean that they would be actually kept from calamity of all kinds, but that they would be kept from the temptation of apostasy in calamity. He would give them grace to bear up under trials with a Christian spirit, and in such a manner that their salvation should not be endangered."

It is clearly seen that "keep" does not mean being taken out of the way as some would have you believe, but a preservation; keeping one in the state in which he is.

Moving on to the word "temptation;" the general rendering of the word implies a putting to the proof; a challenge to show one's self; a trial. It is commonly used by God to test or prove one's character, faith, holiness.

By looking at the facts presented here the following can be gathered from this verse:

the word "keep" tells us that we shall be preserved in the state we are in;

the word "from" also shows us that we preserved "in" the state we are in;

the word "temptation" reveals that we are preserved in the trials of God to make proof of our faith.

No where can it be seen in this verse that the Church shall be taken out, but rather that the Church shall be preserved in the trial ahead. Look at the church of Philadelphia for an example. They were not taken out by God, but were preserved by Him. Don't be deceived, my beloved brethren.

[Guest LCPGUY]

Greetings LCPGUY,

You made the suggestion, I supplied the answer. NOW you can't/won't respond. I didn't speak in a lot of symbols or allegories, I gave you plain definitions SCRIPTURAL DEFINITIONS of what Tribulation and God's Wrath means ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES. How about providing YOUR OWN then FROM the scriptures?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

The reason being is that no matter what anyone says on any scripture verse, you go somewhere else and take another scripture out of context to try and prove your opponent wrong. In this case, you go back to Moses and Pharaoh and the red Sea. Irrelevant. Most of our views are based on taking scripture literally and in context and in sequence.

The original scriptures Trinity posted were excellent examples of those supporting a pre-trib rapture. You choose not to accept them however.

This is a losing no-win battle and I for one am out of it. You simply refuse to see the plain simple truth of the pre-trib rapture and dig up all manner of non-related scriptures to try and disprove it.

We

[senerhu]

the Apostles DID NOT ESCAPE, from the first Christians to now, all the martyrs DID NOT ESCAPE, nor does the multitudes of Christians in Revelation ESCAPE. This literally means that millions, perhaps billions who have read the Bible from the time it was first written to the very end DID NOT ESCAPE, yet you think that those living in those last days WILL ESCAPE? This is absurd. Our BLESSED HOPE is the RESURRECTION - NOT THE RAPTURE.

I believe you are wrong on this point. All Christians alive or currently dead, will not face the Great Tribulation that is to come.This is where you are in error. As I told you before, there are many souls, since Christ, that have not gone through tribulation, babies, children etc. Tribulation for all since Christ has not been equal. There are many Christians who have lived a blessed life and have known no hardship. When the great tribulation comes, after the rapture, all will suffer more than any to this point.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Senerhu,

I believe you are wrong on this point. All Christians alive or currently dead, will not face the Great Tribulation that is to come.This is where you are in error. As I told you before, there are many souls, since Christ, that have not gone through tribulation, babies, children etc. Tribulation for all since Christ has not been equal. There are many Christians who have lived a blessed life and have known no hardship. When the great tribulation comes, after the rapture, all will suffer more than any to this point.

My point being that there are MULTITUDES WHICH NO MAN CAN COUNT to whom you say that the scriptures DO NOT APPLY, since they will MISS your PRE-TRIB RAPTURE. Whatever scriptures YOU claim to ESCAPE the "great tribulation", don't you think that even THEY should be able to claim them as well? Are they going to say among themselves that ALL SCRIPTURE IS PROFITABLE...? Or are they going to say ONLY SOME OF THE SCRIPTURE IS PROFITABLE...?

What an absolutely absurd doctrine.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[senerhu]

Greetings Senerhu,

I believe you are wrong on this point. All Christians alive or currently dead, will not face the Great Tribulation that is to come.This is where you are in error. As I told you before, there are many souls, since Christ, that have not gone through tribulation, babies, children etc. Tribulation for all since Christ has not been equal. There are many Christians who have lived a blessed life and have known no hardship. When the great tribulation comes, after the rapture, all will suffer more than any to this point.

My point being that there are MULTITUDES WHICH NO MAN CAN COUNT to whom you say that the scriptures DO NOT APPLY, since they will MISS your PRE-TRIB RAPTURE. Whatever scriptures YOU claim to ESCAPE the "great tribulation", don't you think that even THEY should be able to claim them as well? Are they going to say among themselves that ALL SCRIPTURE IS PROFITABLE...? Or are they going to say ONLY SOME OF THE SCRIPTURE IS PROFITABLE...?

What an absolutely absurd doctrine.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Ernie, what is absurd is you failure to understand. I believe in the pre-rapture. Therefore, those Christians that are raptured, like those Christians which have preceded them in death, will not face the great tribulation....what is so hard to understand about that?

And I'll tell you what else is absurd. Is your continued use of put downs, insults and slams when talking to fellow Christians. That is something I would expect satan to do, not a fellow brother in Christ. ESPECIALLY when talking about a subject that Jesus prophesied that NO MAN WILL KNOW THE HOUR...LOL

Now that is an absolutely absurd consept.