Catholic Q/A

[Katholish]

Jesussaves,

Katholish, do you think wearing and believing in things such as a scapular to be anointed to get you into heaven takes away from the finished work of Jesus Christ crucified? Can anything other than being born again, like Jesus said, ensure that you will go to heaven when you die?

If a person put their faith of Salvation in an object, they would be guilty of superstition, which is incompatible with true Faith. So yes, it would "take away from teh finished work of Jesus Christ crucified." However, has I mentioned in my response, the scapular is not a magical ammulet that gets a person into Heaven. If someone believes that it is, it is superstitious.

No, nothing other then having Faith and being born again in Christ through Baptism can make a person a son of God and an heir to Heaven.

[Guest charlie]

Katholish,

Looks like you're copying directly out of reference books. Any of us here can look up a book in a library.

What's your "deal" there Steve. Everybody goes by what they've been taught... even you...let her answer without throwing in some sort of slur or derogatory comment. What's wrong with library books? I think they're great! I love the library.

[Katholish]

Just a minor point there Charlie, but that pronoun should be a "he" not a "her". Thanks

[stevehut]

What's your "deal" there Steve. Everybody goes by what they've been taught... even you...

Anyone can go read a book in a library. I thought Katholish was going to offer personal perspectives and experience.

[stevehut]

do you think wearing and believing in things such as a scapular to be anointed to get you into heaven takes away from the finished work of Jesus Christ crucified?

If a person put their faith of Salvation in an object, they would be guilty of superstition, which is incompatible with true Faith. So yes, it would "take away from teh finished work of Jesus Christ crucified."

Actually, I have a scapular that I was given by my grandmother many years ago. I hang onto it for emotional family reasons, not for religious reasons.

It says on my scapular, "The person who dies wearing this scapular will go to heaven".

[stevehut]

most of the people who are not Catholic but would like to ask a question would not know where are how to research such questions

Again, all kinds of reference books are readily available in public libraries everywhere. And anyone who knows the Internet well enough to get into the Worthy Boards, is also probably able to look it up on Yahoo, etc.

When you offered to answer questions, I was presuming (at least hoping?) that you would be sharing from your own experiences and/or perspectives.

When people visit my church, they often have all kinds of questions about our church's doctrines and the Bible. They often assume that the minister is the only person who's able to do that. But most of our members are fully able to instruct a new believer.

OK, I'm done now.

[Botz]

Botz...

2. Do Catholics believe that their prayers can go through Mary to Jesus

3. Do Catholics believe that a so-called Saint can pray for them or help them?

Katholish....

Yes.

The short answer is that we pray (ask the intercession of) to the saints for the same reason that we ask other holy people on earth to pray for us.

We can ask the intercession of the righteous on earth, indeed there is explicit evidence from Scripture for this.

James 5:

16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

It is my claim, and that of the Church, that there is no impediment to prohibit this asking of intercession from continuing among the saints in Heaven after they die. There are three arguements presented against it though, sometimes acting alone or in concert.

1) The saints in Heaven cannot pray.

2) The saints in Heaven do not care about the faithful on earth.

3) The saints in Heaven cannot be aware of our request for intercession.

If none of these objections are valid, then it is clear that the saints in Heaven retain their ability and desire to pray for us on Earth and can hear and respond to our requests for intercession. For there is enough Scriptural evidence to show that the righteous can intercede for us, this does not need to be proven, thus further evidence, either from Scripture or Sacred Tradition is not needed to support the doctrine, for it is clearly stated in Scripture provided that death provides no barrier to its continuance.

1) Can the saints in Heaven pray? Clearly prayer includeds praise and thanksgiving, two things which clearly are proper for a saint in Heaven. Saints offer constant praise to God in Heaven for they behold Him face to face. Intercession is also a part of prayer, and they would certainly be capable of this part as well as thanksgiving and praise, but the question arises whether or not they would use this ability, and that brings us to objection #2.

2) The saints in Heaven are clearly capable of helping the faithful on Earth, for as the Scripture states: the "prayer of a just man availeth much", and the saints in Heaven are certainly just and can pray. Would they exercise their ability to help us though? I think that the answer is clearly yes. All of the faithful in Christ make up one Body as the Scripture states:

Ephesians 4:

16 From whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body, unto the edifying of itself in charity.

Thus the Body of Christ is united in charity, each of the parts care for the others. Is the arm indifferent to the health of the foot? No, but both are concerned with the health of the whole. Thus the saints in Heaven do care about and would help the faithful on Earth if they had the ability, which they do as argued in response to objection #1. For the saints are conformed to Christ, and has Christ loves all men and wishes them to be saved, for He, being the Good Shepard would leave the 99 behind and search after the one that is lost. So the saints care for Christ's flock because Christ cares for it. The saints would pray for us then even if they cannot hear us, because they know that we are in need of prayers and that their own prayers availeth much before the throne of God.

3) Can the saints in Heaven hear the petitions of the faithful on Earth? The arguement is that the saints are not omniscient and therefore cannot hear all of the prayers or indeed any of the prayers and petitions of the faithful asking them to intercede for them. Firstly, let us turn aside for a moment and look at the angels. The angels and the saints in Heaven both lack omniscience, for indeed only God Himself has that attribute. However, the angels can hear the prayers of the faithful on Earth, and the Scriptures even record instances when the faithful have addressed the angels and have spoken with them.

Psalm 102:

19 The lord hath prepared his throne in heaven: and his kingdom shall rule over all.

20 Bless the Lord, all ye his angels: you that are mighty in strength, and execute his word, hearkening to the voice of his orders.

21 Bless the Lord, all ye his hosts: you ministers of his that do his will.

22 Bless the Lord, all his works: in every place of his dominion, O my soul, bless thou the Lord.

Matthew 18:

10 See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

Revelation 8:

3 And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God.

4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.

If the angels can hear the prayers and petitions of the faithful, why not the saints in Heaven? Neither are omniscient, both spiritual, and both in communion with God, serving before His Almighty throne. It is also fitting for their happiness to have news and knowledge of the fate of their loved ones, for the love that they bore for them on Earth, surely shall not cease when they are in Heaven, but has St. Monica loved her son St. Augustine on Earth, she will continue to love him in Heaven.

Truly the saints in Heaven can pray for the faithful on Earth. Truly they desire to do so. Truly just as the angels, the saints can hear our petitions and present them before the Throne of God. That is why Catholics pray to Mary and the saints.

Regarding the idea that a person can go through a mediator to gain the ear of the Father apart from the L-rd and Saviour Jesus Christ..whether that be the blessed Mary or any so-called saints or holy/righteous dead people I just do not see it at all in Scripture...and I found the convoluted arguments that you quoted falls woefully short of a solid biblical exergesis and rather borders on psychological reasoning and situation ethics.

The Mormons have a song that represents why they believe in a Father god and a Mother god...the reasoning being that if there is a Father in Heaven...then it follows there must be a mother!

Scripture requires something to be established by two or three witnesses...and as far as I can see this is a good safe-guard regarding doctrinal evidence.

2Corinthians 13:1 .... In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

From Scripture we have only one Mediator...and no other person or Angelic being however righteous they might appear to be....with whom to communicate.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

If we look to the supreme example...the life of our Saviour...we never see Him appealing to any of the Saints...or giving a hint that it would be acceptable at some future date to seek their favour in prayer and supplications.. Paul that great Apostle is so careful to present the full Gospel message and sound doctrine...so much so that he says..

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

I can see no Scriptural evidence at all for the doctrine of praying to or through anyone other than the Saviour and I see certain safeguards and Scriptural boundaries that try to ensure we do not overstep the mark and get into the realm of fancy or the doctrines of men...whether they are so-called Church Fathers or an Angel from Heaven...If what is presented cannot be reconciled to the Scriptures in our hands we have little choice but to reject it.

So in this regard I feel Catholic Doctrine is mis-leading and un-Scriptural.

Regarding Mary and the purity of the Catholic Church I see others have answered in part and I might just come back at you later on if I feel it is appropriate.

Although I strongly disagree with your arguments I really appreciate you taking the time to so thoroughly describe why you came to those conclusions and hold the beliefs that you do...and the spirit in which you write is a good example of patience and forbearance...may G-d richly bless you. :hug:

[stevehut]

About praying to Mary or the saints:

Deuteronomy 18:10-12

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD

[Guest charlie]

Are some of you afraid of letting Katholish answer the questions? I get the impression a few of you are trying to derail the thread.

who consults the dead.

Why don't you go start a separate thread on "soul sleep" steve, since that seems to be what you believe in.

[stevehut]

Why don't you go start a separate thread on "soul sleep" steve, since that seems to be what you believe in.

Soul sleep?

I have no idea what that is. Never heard the term until this moment.