To follow the Law or not?

[Qun Mang]

I have heard it said that being a Gentile I am not expected to follow the Law. Not the Ten Commandments, mind you, but the rest of the Law as set in Deuteronomy and Leviticus (though the latter may have been for the Levite priesthood only anyway). However on the same coin a Messianic Jew is still expected to follow the Law because he/she is still Jewish. How true is this? I know a friend of mine who I haven't spoke with in some time became a Messianic, though he was raised in a Catholic family (that is, as a Gentile) and later became saved before becoming Messianic, and started observing the Law.

[wordsower]

It's not that you are supposed to disregard the law when you are saved. It's that you are supposed to have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you - a mystery to the OT believer. Remember Jesus said you had to be born again. This is totally inconceivable in the natural. Nicodemus asked Him how in the world he could go into his mother's womb and be born again!

When you surrender your life to Christ you receive the mind of Christ, you receive a new heart that can receive from God, you have something the angels can't even figure out (see 1 Peter 1 and 2) it explains how the chosen generation did not receive this because of disobedience so we became the royal priesthood, a holy nation, into the light.

For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law but under grace. Romans 6:14

For if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even i this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Galatians 5:14

If you do not have Jesus, you can not love so then you need the law to keep people under control. Since you receive Christ, you love and therefore will not steal, kill, covet, lie, etc.....so you don't need a book of laws to tell you what you already feel in your conscience and your heart. You are led by the Spirit, not the letter.

Hope that helps some.

[Guest zionprophet]

I think you will find many of these points addressed also in the Sabbath or Sunday threads.

My advice would be to read through all of the threads, with an open-mind, and bear in mind that there is two opposing view points.

On the one hand, I myself most certainly agree whole-heartedly that the Law is still applicable to this very day, whilst others do not share this view.

I would also point out that it is not possible to observe all of the laws, and furthermore, many of the OT laws are in fact covered in most Western societies, like many parts of Europe, the Uk, the US and Canada.

Many of the modern laws of these nations were influenced by Puritan christians after the reformation period.

These puritan believers believed that understanding Hebrew and Judaism was the only true way to understand the New Testament.

The founding fathers of America were puritans whose ideaology for the nation was a return to it's judaic roots. It's oldest learning institutions were established upon these beliefs.

Harvard University was founded in 1636, just 16 years after the Mayflower landed, and the Uni was named after the notable Puritan Minister John Harvard. According to the Proceedings of the Massachusetts Historical Society, Hebrew was an important component of a Harvard education from the day it's doors opened

[ Re Proceedings of Massachusetts Historical Society, 52 (May 1919) @ 285]

Some people believe that christianity is The New Israel, that the old has been done away with, and that the Old Testament is a nice picture of ancient history, and nothing more.

A man, or indeed anyone, seeking after truth, should search diligently for it. They will not find it wrapping their heads around just the New Testament. they need to search diligently for truth and knowledge in many spheres.

The primary starting point however, is belief and acceptance that Ha-Moshiach was the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Acts 2:38

Edited August 16, 2004 by zionprophet

[Botz]

To everyone who is born of woman... the Law ...which is holy, just, pure, and true...is the way G-d has chosen to reveal Himself to people...and since the time of Moses everyone is bound by the Law.

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

The only way a person can be released from the obligations of the Law is to die!

Paul illustrates this very nicely with this graphic image in Romans.

Rom 7:2 For the woman that has a husband is bound by law to the husband while he lives, but if the husband dies, she is discharged from the law of the husband.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while the husband lives, she is joined to another man, she would be called an adulteress. But if the husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she is joined to another man.

Until we die we are obligated to the Law...it has not ceased, it has not been replaced or changed.

Mat 5:17 "Don't think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Mat 5:18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished.

Mat 5:19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least mitzvot, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

The only way for anyone to be free from the obligations of the Law is to die otherwise it is encumbent upon everyone who does not die to live according to Torah without exception.

The good news is that Messiah has made the way possible so that everyone who places their trust in Him and repents and believes that he died and has risen from the grave...can actually die and also fulfill the Law..and rise again with Messiah in newness of life.

They are no longer obligated to the Law...rather they are now married to another...namely Messiah Yeshua and are slaves of righteousness.

Rom 6:11 Thus also consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Messiah Yeshua our Lord.

Apart from being freed from the law of sin and death a Believer is loosed from the Law...because they have died and the claims of the Law upon a person only apply while he lives.

At least this is how I see the Scriptures regarding this subject which is often made so complicated when in fact it is simple and understandable when we just read what is published and grasp the enormity of our salvation.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Botz,

That was an absolutely GREAT response. You were RIGHT ON!

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Qun Mang]

Definitely an interesting way of looking at it. I have always wondered what exactly Jesus meant when he said he came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. So when we are born again in Christ we accept the fulfillment of the Law and take on the New Covenant Law. I never saw that before in being reborn. I always just took it as dead to our old selves and alive in Christ as an adopted child of God. Thanks. :t:

So is this saying that Messianic Jews don't need to continue in the Law either, and in fact probably shouldn't? This could be seen as not accepting that Christ is sufficient. I supposed I don't need to worry either way as I was never Jewish so no need to answer that . I do know that God showed Peter that what was considered unclean is now clean before he visited Cornelius and there are other examples too like circumcision.

As for reading the other threads I will try if I find the time. There is soooo much to read on these forums- so many posts and many read like books too.

Thanks all. :t: :t3:

[Botz]

Qun Mang..

So is this saying that Messianic Jews don't need to continue in the Law either, and in fact probably shouldn't?

In no way am I implying that.

The Law failed..not because it was not perfect..but we were not perfect.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Messiah Yeshua made me free from the law of sin and of death.

Rom 8:3 For what the law couldn't do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh;

Rom 8:4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

A Believing Jew would probably take greater delight in keeping the L-rds feasts and enjoying Torah and the whole gamut of Judischkeit than ever before...but as far as I can see he is no longer bound to attempt to keep that which he was obligated to keep before Messiah released him from the Law and bound him to Himself.

If a Jewish Believer delights in Torah he does it of a free will because in it he finds such teaching,history and prophetic sign-posts that it is a great celebration of his heritage ...everything has meaning and purpose...even more so now that Messiah has been revealed to him.

When I as a Gentile go and celebrate Passover with my Jewish friends...it is such a blessing and a teaching...and everytime I get something more from it and the presence of the L-rd is lovely...Doing this is not being bound by the Law or seeking once again to be put under the Law...it is cherishing that which is perfect and enjoying some of the many benefits provided by such a G-dly heritage.

Psa 119:151 You are near, LORD. All your mitzvot are truth.

The Christian Church would do well to look to its heritage and ditch some of its pagan based celebrations that have little to do with historic fact and more to do with replacement and sentimentality.

Dad Ernie...thanks for the encouragement.

Once again I will add my proviso that this is how I see things from Scripture and I am constantly learning and updating my present understanding.

[Qun Mang]

I'll have to disagree with getting rid of celebrations like Christmas and Easter (both timed to counter pagan celebrations). Christ's coming to save us was the most wonderful and loving thing imaginable. Of course we need to honor Good Friday too because that goes along with Easter. He had to die before He could be resurrected. The church I attend does this but the one I grew up in did not. There is every reason to celebrate the opening of Heaven to us as who wouldn't want to spend eternity there? Yes these two holidays are "celebrated" by the heathen as well, and even we fall into the traps of mixing their celebration with ours (trees, presents, easter eggs, etc...) and I'm guessing that may be where you're coming from with this. I still think though that we ought to celebrate together what God did for us even if it isn't proscribed in the Scriptures.

I also think it's good for us to honor the Hebrew roots of Christianity. From time to time there will be a seder meal at our church to teach us about the Passover meal. But we of course do this out of learning and not as any requirement. Maybe we should do more. What do you think?

[Botz]

I think the difference between some Christian celebrations and Jewish celebrations is that the latter are truely biblical...and most confirmed by Scripture...whereas Christmas and Easter seem an attempt to break away from the true meanings of the Jewish festivals that cover these periods and there detract from the history and the meaning...for example the rampant commercialism and other things you mentioned..and Christmas is a couple of months out according to most scholars.

I find much more cause to celebrate the L-rds ressurection within the framework of Passover..I don't celebrate Easter at all...as for Christmas and some other times I am ambivalent...there is not much clarity and true context and for me and that makes them rather shallow. Don't get me wrong...I am not a Gentile who tries to be Jewish...I just see that as Gentiles it is time we really thought more about what we do rather than just follow the herd...and I can see solid reasons for adopting a much stronger Jewish approach to many things because it has been made available for Gentiles to enjoy along with their Jewish brethren.

In answer to your question....Yes I do think we should learn more and celebrate more the Feasts of the L-rd..by taking part we are actually living in and taking part in a Bible study,enjoying good fellowship and the presence of G-d...reason enough to encourage each other to get back to basics.

[Guest yod]

To everyone who is born of woman... the Law ...which is holy, just, pure, and true...is the way G-d has chosen to reveal Himself to people...and since the time of Moses everyone is bound by the Law.

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

The only way a person can be released from the obligations of the Law is to die!

Paul illustrates this very nicely with this graphic image in Romans.

Rom 7:2 For the woman that has a husband is bound by law to the husband while he lives, but if the husband dies, she is discharged from the law of the husband.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while the husband lives, she is joined to another man, she would be called an adulteress. But if the husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she is joined to another man.

Until we die we are obligated to the Law...it has not ceased, it has not been replaced or changed.

Mat 5:17 "Don't think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Mat 5:18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished.

Mat 5:19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least mitzvot, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

The only way for anyone to be free from the obligations of the Law is to die otherwise it is encumbent upon everyone who does not die to live according to Torah without exception.

The good news is that Messiah has made the way possible so that everyone who places their trust in Him and repents and believes that he died and has risen from the grave...can actually die and also fulfill the Law..and rise again with Messiah in newness of life.

They are no longer obligated to the Law...rather they are now married to another...namely Messiah Yeshua and are slaves of righteousness.

Rom 6:11 Thus also consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Messiah Yeshua our Lord.

Apart from being freed from the law of sin and death a Believer is loosed from the Law...because they have died and the claims of the Law upon a person only apply while he lives.

At least this is how I see the Scriptures regarding this subject which is often made so complicated when in fact it is simple and understandable when we just read what is published and grasp the enormity of our salvation.

wow....

I am stunned at the simple wisdom of that post, man.