We must encourage the poor to work.

[~candice~]

Dave.... you can't use Jesus healings against socialistic medicine . How are we to replicate that? We can't heal like that!!!

We can't ? Explain please.

Scripture says we can and we will.

It's only my opinion but God has destroyed two economic systems in the past 30 years that had become idols and is busy taking down the idol of Western medicine. What will we do when we can no longer just take a pill and even out? Who will we rely on when the Government tells us to go home and die because we're too old for a heart transplant? What will happen when we take our kids to the Doctor and sit and wait with a child in pain because of the long lines and then are told we forgot, "Ze Papers!"? Come back in three weeks!

Who will we turn to when the Government fails us?

peace,

dave

Wow a Hilter reference and we are only in page 2!

Dave, God does not heal through us every time we pray for it. That is fact, undeniable. We cannot rely on miraculous healing to be the way in which we provide health care for the poor and sick and needy .

Aww sis. That's disingenuous. Many societies have asked for, "Ze Papers!"

As for reference on condemning relying on the Goevrnment;

Mr 3:24

And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God?

The world and it's Kingdoms are not focusd on God.

peace,

dave

Disingenuous is straight from the $5 word locker!

I really don't get how giving through the government is condemned using those verses. This isn't friendship with the government instead of with God. This is using what is available to get funds out there.

My faith is in God, I would always pray for wisdom in where to give my money. But I have not ever felt convicted about giving through the government as part of that.

[MorningGlory]

Before we jump on this there has to BE WORK AVAILABLE for those who need it. I have a neice and a sister who are both highly qualified and cannot get work even though they are willing to do ANY job and have applied for over 300 jobs between them.

They are not even looked at for many as they are " OVER QUALIFIED ".

This is a very valid point. A friend of mine was head of Procurement for KBR in Iraq, 7 figure salary, and he was laid off. He was out of work for a year and ended up going to Kuwait to work for Halliburton. No one would hire him here! I created his resume and, believe me, the man is qualified to run a corporation. But no one is going to hire him for a call center, retail outlet or other run of the mill job because they know he would always have one eye on (and one foot out of) the door.

[mizzdy]

Dave.... you can't use Jesus healings against socialistic medicine . How are we to replicate that? We can't heal like that!!!

We can't ? Explain please.

Scripture says we can and we will.

It's only my opinion but God has destroyed two economic systems in the past 30 years that had become idols and is busy taking down the idol of Western medicine. What will we do when we can no longer just take a pill and even out? Who will we rely on when the Government tells us to go home and die because we're too old for a heart transplant? What will happen when we take our kids to the Doctor and sit and wait with a child in pain because of the long lines and then are told we forgot, "Ze Papers!"? Come back in three weeks!

Who will we turn to when the Government fails us?

peace,

dave

Thats the core of it really, who do we rely on, put our trust in to take care of us, God or our govs.? By relying on fed aid we rely on an insitution to take care of our needs instead of God. Theres nothing wrong with giving to orgs who provide charity we just should not be doing so because we are ordered to. If our gov. would get out of the way of 'job growth' we might be able to see some buisnesses coming back but as it is all the regs this administration keeps pushing all of us will be on state aid, just like they want.

[OneLight]

Before we jump on this there has to BE WORK AVAILABLE for those who need it. I have a neice and a sister who are both highly qualified and cannot get work even though they are willing to do ANY job and have applied for over 300 jobs between them.

They are not even looked at for many as they are " OVER QUALIFIED ".

I see an opportunity. There are many things that every person is qualified to do within our society that would allow them to do something, as working at a non-profit a few hours a week, to receive assistance (if they can work). I am not speaking of finding paid employment, but more like volunteering a said amount of time to qualify to receive these services. This would take some of the burden off from many companies and , at the same time, give the person a feeling of working for what they receive instead of feeling it is a handout.

[Rick-Parker]

Trouble is, here in America, on account of our free welfare -

Teenage girls in the inner city are getting pregnant just so that they can get an increased welfare check. And so what if they never finish high school?

Some people use their welfare to pay for alcoholic beverages and get drunk.

I could probably list a whole other slew of problems.

It's one thing to argue about those who can't work nor have family or a church to provide for them to justify the system. The problem is welfare has created a culture of lazy dependency that only gets worse as time goes on.

Amen.

[~candice~]

Dave.... you can't use Jesus healings against socialistic medicine . How are we to replicate that? We can't heal like that!!!

We can't ? Explain please.

Scripture says we can and we will.

It's only my opinion but God has destroyed two economic systems in the past 30 years that had become idols and is busy taking down the idol of Western medicine. What will we do when we can no longer just take a pill and even out? Who will we rely on when the Government tells us to go home and die because we're too old for a heart transplant? What will happen when we take our kids to the Doctor and sit and wait with a child in pain because of the long lines and then are told we forgot, "Ze Papers!"? Come back in three weeks!

Who will we turn to when the Government fails us?

peace,

dave

Thats the core of it really, who do we rely on, put our trust in to take care of us, God or our govs.? By relying on fed aid we rely on an insitution to take care of our needs instead of God. Theres nothing wrong with giving to orgs who provide charity we just should not be doing so because we are ordered to. If our gov. would get out of the way of 'job growth' we might be able to see some buisnesses coming back but as it is all the regs this administration keeps pushing all of us will be on state aid, just like they want.

Appears I am misunderstanding something here . Mizzy this isn't directed at you but your post is making me think I misunderstand what Dave is saying.

We place faith in God to provide for us, but we don't have the right to demand HOW he brings those provisions to us. We cannot demand miracles, our faith is not in miraculous healings as the provision of health care, but the Lord to provide in a method He sees fit and in His timing.

No, the model for health care that we are aiming for is not to rely on miraculous healings as Jesus performed.

Yes, we can give through the government and NGO's. I still see no valid scripture saying we can't.

[MorningGlory]

Trouble is, here in America, on account of our free welfare -

Teenage girls in the inner city are getting pregnant just so that they can get an increased welfare check. And so what if they never finish high school?

Some people use their welfare to pay for alcoholic beverages and get drunk.

I could probably list a whole other slew of problems.

It's one thing to argue about those who can't work nor have family or a church to provide for them to justify the system. The problem is welfare has created a culture of lazy dependency that only gets worse as time goes on.

Amen.

And Amen! So true.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Yes, we can give through the government and NGO's.

Nope.

Let's go back to what Jesus said for a moment;

Mt

[Matthitjah]

By the way,

Jesus advocates that you give secretly and that you not let your left hand know what the right is doing. This your Father will see and will reward you.

No where does God advocate a third leg in this relationship.

He tells you to give directly. Giving to the Government either through taxation or directly to benefit the poor is a dereliction of your duty and True Religion.

I know what you are going to say, Christians give to NGO's all the time and they are Charitable. However, they are in fact Christian organizations. Would you give your donations to the JW Church down the street. if so, why not?

peace,

dave

[~candice~]

Grace to you,

Yes, we can give through the government and NGO's.

Nope.

Let's go back to what Jesus said for a moment;

Mt 22:21

They said unto him, Caesar's. Then said he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

The Pharisee's had asked Him if it was lawful to pay tribute to Caesar. The question was designed to entrap Him between the two. If He said no, then they would prosecute Him under Roman Law as an enemy of Caesar. if he said yes, then they would accuse Him before His followers of being an enemy of God.

I don't see how you can equate tributes with voluntary giving. Going by your standard, any organised giving is non biblical. That verse in no way prohibits anyone from giving through governments or NGO's.

In stating what he was stating he was advocating that they sumbmit to the Civil Authority and honor it for it's civil protection but He was also saying that God should get their liberal giving, faith, Love, Obedience, and practice of True Religion. It was unto Him and not men that these Spiritual ordinances were done. His Kingdom is Greater.

I think you are gleaning too much from this verse. The verse says to render to God what is God's. We do that with our hearts and lives and minds, our time, our lips, our money. I can render my money unto God and yet faithfully give to others through a middle company if He guides me that way (which He sometimes does).

God no where commands us to give to the Government as a Charitable action but He does in fact command us to act on Charity and to give from our hearts to others

and out of Obedience. There is no Corporate form of the Body that includes this worlds Governments or other Organizations.

I am not suggesting that giving through the government or a middle man should replace personal religion. I am saying that we can use these things as a tool to get money and resources to the needy. I cannot personally deliver medications and vaccines to kids in Africa. How would I do that personally? I would give the money to a company over there who has the ability to do so.

Matter of fact, the U.S. Constitution forbids a State form of Religion but the current crop of Leftists in this Nation are in fact advocating Corporate Salvation with their policies. The reason they want the Churches to sign onto this Marxism is as a cover.

I am not them.

Sister Candice, please show nme where in Scripture that God commands or Advocates that the Government do the job of the individual believer

Well this misrepresents my position. I am not asking for the government to do the work of individual believers, but that as wise stewards of our money, sometimes the best way to help someone is to use other organisations. Can you imagine the chaos if people personally sent supplies to Haiti after the earthquake? I would have been disasterous. Governments and NGO's stepped up and co-ordinated the aid effort, and collected our spare clothing and food and medications etc, to deliver to Haiti. This is a much better way of meeting the needs of people who were genuinely needy and yet wasn't face to face. I do not believe you have adequately presented scripture that prohibits this kind of giving.

I am not even suggesting that a christian should think that this kind of giving replaces personal religion and the hands on face to face giving and serving of those in need. But I do think that we can make use of these organisations when it is wise and more beneficial to do so.

or where our Salvation is Corporate in natue, or dependant upon others actions.

Where did you get THAT from? Not me!

peace,

Dave

I notice you didn't address my concerns about relying on miracles as the way in which we provided health care for the sick. Can you address that please? I'm not sure I am understanding you on this issue.

In the OT, specificially under the theocratic reign, the sick and widows were looked after by tithes (essentially) collected from the people. They were provided for not by praying for miracles from God, but through practical means.

Same goes for today. I do believe in the healing power of the Lord. But I do not believe we have been called to rely upon miraculous healing in order to solve the problem of the sick today.