We must encourage the poor to work.

[Miss Elly]

Dave.... you can't use Jesus healings against socialistic medicine . How are we to replicate that? We can't heal like that!!!

We can't ? Explain please.

Scripture says we can and we will.

It's only my opinion but God has destroyed two economic systems in the past 30 years that had become idols and is busy taking down the idol of Western medicine. What will we do when we can no longer just take a pill and even out? Who will we rely on when the Government tells us to go home and die because we're too old for a heart transplant? What will happen when we take our kids to the Doctor and sit and wait with a child in pain because of the long lines and then are told we forgot, "Ze Papers!"? Come back in three weeks!

Who will we turn to when the Government fails us?

peace,

dave

Wow a Hilter reference and we are only in page 2!

Dave, God does not heal through us every time we pray for it. That is fact, undeniable. We cannot rely on miraculous healing to be the way in which we provide health care for the poor and sick and needy .

I'm not Dave, but folks may HAVE to rely on God and miraculous healing someday, if and when the government won't supply it or they cannot afford it. God took care of the children of Israel wandering in the desert for 40 years, they were fed and their clothes and sandals did not wear out. I'm sure they were all healthy as well, except for those who angered God and he sent plagues upon them. They were God's chosen people.....and aren't we God's chosen people as well? If you believe you shall receive.

As far as giving to the poor and needy, we have a reward in heaven for doing so. Sometimes people are destitute because of ignorance.....in some southern countries, they are not taught to tithe, but to give to the Catholic church's treasuries, other countries believe it is a sin to eat a cow, etc. Many others are cursed financially because they do not call upon the true God for help. It would be great to get them saved and to trust the Lord to meet their needs, as we christians know to do. God is faithful to meet our needs physically and financially, but we have to call on Him first. And how can they call on Him if they have not heard? And how beautiful are the feet who run to preach the gospel.

[Matthitjah]

Sadly,

The situation that Fez is showing is all too common. Know how they got that way though? Dictatorships, Communism, Socialism, Totalitariansim, Superstitions, Ignorance, Caste Societies, Islam, etc.......

Yet we in the prosperous West have begun to think that these are Grand Ideals.

One only need look to Venezuela, it's former prosperity, it's new Socialist Dictator, and it's current financial and economic outlook.

These Social Utopias never work.

The Church has no business getting itno bed with Governments like those mentioned above.

Fez, you're a very special brother.

peace,

dave

[Fez]

Sadly,

The situation that Fez is showing is all too common. Know how they got that way though? Dictatorships, Communism, Socialism, Totalitariansim, Superstitions, Ignorance, Caste Societies, Islam, etc.......

Yet we in the prosperous West have begun to think that these are Grand Ideals.

One only need look to Venezuela, it's former prosperity, it's new Socialist Dictator, and it's current financial and economic outlook.

These Social Utopias never work.

The Church has no business getting itno bed with Governments like those mentioned above.

Fez, you're a very special brother.

peace,

dave

Grace to you Dave....

You are right about "Dictatorships, Communism, Socialism, Totalitariansim, Superstitions, Ignorance, and Caste Societies"

Mozambique for instance.

Colonized by the Portuguese, raped for it's timber, agriculture, and minerals. Along comes Samora Machel (Still venerated as a hero and liberator). Chases the Portuguese out. In step the Russians. The great socialist experiment (and the plan to destabilize the region begins) Frelimo versus Renamo and a bloody civil war supplied by Russia on one side and South Africa on the other. After 10 years of killing each other peace erupts.

And a ruined country lies waste. No infrastructure, shaky government, no health care, exports, etc. Landmines everywhere - they are still clearing them.

But the only good legacy is a forgiving, wonderful people. God is at work through people like Heidi Baker from Iris Ministries (look her up - she states "my every breath is a prayer").

And now? A desperate government, seeking to rebuild, is selling the country.

To the Chinese - they are everywhere, building roads, universities, stadiums, power supply, mining.

And so the cycle continues.....

[Logos Knight]

I think it's really sad that the poor are thought of in this way.

James 2

15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,

16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

Matthew 19

21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

These passages aren't very popular with the Religious Right because they're not "Free Market Parables." But I think the message behind them is more essential to the Gospel than singing the praises of wealth and materialism.

[Matthitjah]

I think it's really sad that the poor are thought of in this way.

James 2

15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,

16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

Matthew 19

21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

These passages aren't very popular with the Religious Right because they're not "Free Market Parables." But I think the message behind them is more essential to the Gospel than singing the praises of wealth and materialism.

The problem is that the Lord is not condemning wealth or wealth generation in these Scriptures.

[Guest man]

Maybe if the poor had to knock on my door and ask for "gleanings" there would be less welfare cheats?

I don't know about welfare cheats, but I can almost guarantee a rise in crime and starvation.

[~candice~]

Good grief Dave I am not wanting the church to get into bed with the government. I only want you to acknowledge that it is perfectly fine to give non-directly. Just because true religion is face to face, doesn't mean we can't give outside of that framework. The government is not the enemy in the bible, nor are NGO's. I think it goes way way way too far to suggest that doing so is getting in bed with the government or putting faith in the government above the Lord.

[Matthitjah]

Good grief Dave I am not wanting the church to get into bed with the government. I only want you to acknowledge that it is perfectly fine to give non-directly. Just because true religion is face to face, doesn't mean we can't give outside of that framework. The government is not the enemy in the bible, nor are NGO's. I think it goes way way way too far to suggest that doing so is getting in bed with the government or putting faith in the government above the Lord.

Sister candice,

I wasn't implying that you were. I'm relating that this is exactly what is happening when the Church climbs in bed with the Government in a bid for social justice. You can give your money to whom ever you wish. I will not give my money to the Government in abid to serve God because a man can't serve two masters.

In America the current Administration is preaching Collective Salvation through Social Justice and Marxism and there are those responding to the call from within the Church. That's what the OP was about, IMO.

Would you worship God by giving money to the JW's? If not, why not?

peace,

dave

[Openly Curious]

At tonight's class in Church two verses were mentioned t hat caught my attention and it showed how our government is so wrong in free handout programs.

Leviticus 19:9,10

9When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleamings of your harvest.

10 Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the Lord your God.

When you first read these verses you may think God is telling us to give free handouts, but if you take notice God was not telling us to go out and pick up the gleamings and give it to the poor. God told us to leave the gleamings so the poor can go out and gather it for themselves. God was saying that the poor must work to put food on the table, yes the food was free but they had to work for it.

It reminds me of "You can give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, but if you teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime".

I'm interested in hearing what others make out of these verses.

I agree 100% with you our government is wrong in creating free handout programs and we should encourage every one to work. How did people get by before the "Welfare State"? Families were helping one another withiin the family but government welfare has taken the place of family and private charities and in the process they are going "broke"

1 Timothy 5:3-16 The counsel of the Lord is that our own family members are to take care of one another and if a family has a widow or widower in it then their own children should care for them and if the widows don't have any children to care for them then the nephews are to take care of them. Piety is suppose to be shown within the home as we are to requite our elders within our family our parents we are to give again repaying them. Then those who are true widows who do not have any family members at all and are desolate (isolate, bereaved) trusts in God, and continues in prayer and supplication. This is a true widow who the church should give "Honour" to them as these type of widows are to be taken into the number the true widows are part of the family of God. Just as the family members in the body of Christ gives honour to the widows who have no family members to take care of them then as the children and nephews of widows are to care for them and not the church family.

But the church is not to take in everyone that is a widow in fact the church has been instructed not to take anyone into the number that is under the age of sixty (60yrs. old) being threescore years old. (60 yrs. old).

The Government ("Welfare State") has taken on the work of the "Family," and the work of the "Church" even the "Charities" and how the charities are to be distributed and this should not be the role of government.

The scripture in Leviticus 19 is greatly seen in the book of Ruth as she gleaned in the field of Boaz as both Naomi and Ruth were widows as they left Moab to return to Israel and when they arrived God had made provision for them but as stated they had to go out and get it. We have all kinds of metal inside of our mountains but if we don't go out and get it out of the mountain then we will not have any benefit from those provisions yet it's there. Matthew chapter 6 - Jesus tells us to consider the lillies of the field and the sparrows how God watches over and feeds them. The lily clothes the field teaching us that God will provide our clothing and provide what we eat as the things we have need of God will provide or add to our lives all, we have to do is seek his righteousness as the provisions are already there but we gotta seek his righteousness. If one wants provisions then you might have to "go out and get it" and that is not meant to condemn those who have needs. We most certainly should be a strong support and encouragement in their lives

[~candice~]

No I wouldn't and you know I wouldn't. I give my tithes to the local body of believers. I give (some) of my givings to NGO's and I don't feel it is unbiblical at all. I still don't think you have demonstrated through scripture that giving through NGO's / the government is non biblical. Sometimes we just don't need to reinvent the wheel and NGO's are a fantastic way to supply needs to the needy. This was my only point and I don't think it at all means I [or anyone doing what I do] is placing faith in the government instead of God.

Please clarify your comments about Jesus healings.