Trinity

[BigD]

Kyle, You got most of the points covered.

And for the part since Jesus forgave sins, so He is God, here are some thoughts

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained

Jesus breathed the Holy Ghost unto the disciples and told them this. So the disciples had the power to forgive sins now. What if everyone whose sins they remitted called them Gods? Would that be right. Jesus didnt forgive sins on His own accord but the Father gave Jesus the Holy Ghost without measure which gave Jesus the power to forgive sins just as the disciples could forgive sins after Jesus gave them the Holy Ghost that He received from the Father.

I have another question. How can God give Jesus the Holy Ghost without measure if Jesus is God and the trinity can never be seperated. Was there a point when Jesus was without the Holy Ghost? If yes, then was there a twin-ity for a certain period of time? If no, then how can God give Jesus that Jesus already has?

Seeking,

BigD.

[ksalzar]

Kyle, You got most of the points covered.

And for the part since Jesus forgave sins, so He is God, here are some thoughts

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained

Jesus breathed the Holy Ghost unto the disciples and told them this. So the disciples had the power to forgive sins now. What if everyone whose sins they remitted called them Gods? Would that be right. Jesus didnt forgive sins on His own accord but the Father gave Jesus the Holy Ghost without measure which gave Jesus the power to forgive sins just as the disciples could forgive sins after Jesus gave them the Holy Ghost that He received from the Father.

I have another question. How can God give Jesus the Holy Ghost without measure if Jesus is God and the trinity can never be seperated. Was there a point when Jesus was without the Holy Ghost? If yes, then was there a twin-ity for a certain period of time? If no, then how can God give Jesus that Jesus already has?

Seeking,

BigD.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that point for forgiveness of sin.

:x:

Thanks for the reminder, /me puts back into memory bank.

[ksalzar]

Well, I can't make you believe Jesus is God, or in the Trinity, and every verse I find, you find a reason to not apply it that way. I guess I've done about the best I can, Kyle. I'm sure someone else will come in and pick it up, that knows a lot more than I do.

Welcome to the board!

I appreciate your wanting to defend your faith and your honesty. I do not know alot either, which is why I always try to discuss these things with people who seek the truth also; so that I may continue to learn of God's truth.

I know it has to be frustrating to put forth example after example of Jesus being God and for me to give quick responses as to why I don't see it as proofs of Jesus being God. It has been very trying for me over the past year studying this issue. Coming to the point where I can actually say that I do not think the trinity is biblical has been a very challenging step for me.

Some of my trinitarian brothers in Christ still discuss and talk with me, some have said we cannot be in communion over this anymore and labeled me heretical, some I have yet to talk to about it.

Despite all this turmoil due to the issue, I trust in God who saves, and as for the way which many of my brothers/sisters have labeled "heretical" I must confess I still am seeking the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus. I continue to search out my own heart, and ask God's guidance into His truth; for those who fear God and do what is right are acceptable to Him.

Peace be with you sir,

-Kyle

Edited August 30, 2004 by ksalzar

[Khristeeanos]

Hey Kyle.

Just a question for you here.

Have you ever looked into the origins of Christianity to see what the original Christians believed?

You would do yourself a favor do search it out.

[WayneB]

Well, I can't make you believe Jesus is God, or in the Trinity, and every verse I find, you find a reason to not apply it that way. I guess I've done about the best I can, Kyle. I'm sure someone else will come in and pick it up, that knows a lot more than I do.

Welcome to the board!

I appreciate your wanting to defend your faith and your honesty. I do not know alot either, which is why I always try to discuss these things with people who seek the truth also; so that I may continue to learn of God's truth.

I know it has to be frustrating to put forth example after example of Jesus being God and for me to give quick responses as to why I don't see it as proofs of Jesus being God. It has been very trying for me over the past year studying this issue. Coming to the point where I can actually say that I do not think the trinity is biblical has been a very challenging step for me.

Some of my trinitarian brothers in Christ still discuss and talk with me, some have said we cannot be in communion over this anymore and labeled me heretical, some I have yet to talk to about it.

Despite all this turmoil due to the issue, I trust in God who saves, and as for the way which many of my brothers/sisters have labeled "heretical" I must confess I still am seeking the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus. I continue to search out my own heart, and ask God's guidance into His truth; for those who fear God and do what is right are acceptable to Him.

Peace be with you sir,

-Kyle

Hi Kyle,

I just reviewed and caught up with the thread. By the way, Calamity is a lady but you couldn't have known being new to the boards. She reflects much humility in her words mostly because I'm sure that none of us, even one fluent in ancient languages, will ever be able to convince you that Jesus is God. Calamity has rightly discerned that you have already made up your mind and are here only to test your arguments on the membership.

I am also seeking the TRUTH but I do not need to seek those truths that have already been clearly revealed to me. We can go back and forth with arguments and Scripture but I am convinced by what I have read in this thread that it will not change your mind

[Botz]

Hi Kyle...While I'm waiting for a reply to my last little question I thought I'd add.

The passage in which Thomas says...

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Your argument in which you use these verses...

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Joh 10:39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

Joh 10:40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.

....and say that this proves Jesus was not G-d when Thomas makes his acclamation because god can mean anyone of us to whom the word of G-d comes...just does not make sense.

You know well enough that it predominantly refers to G-d ...and the context here shows Thomas encountering the risen L-rd Jesus ...his Rabbi,Teacher and Friend...he is astonished and declares..."My L-rd and my G-d". ...To try and say that actually Thomas meant G-d in the sense of how we are all judges to whom the word of G-d comes...is very very weak....and by-passes the growing revelation of who Jesus is thoughout the Gospel account...that rises to a crescendo by the end of the Gospel....why on earth would Thomas try and declare Jesus as just a god in the sense that we are all gods/judges...the passage leaves no room for doubt to what doubting Tom was saying!

Besides that back in John 10....the Jews were going to stone Jesus because He placed himself in the same place as the Father...and they knew what He was saying....even if you don't.

[skankxygon]

I am not a trinitarian, although I can see and concieve the possibility of the trinity existing. I just want to note that no one in the New Testament was clear on Trinity (1 John 5:7-8 is suspect at best as a probably addition), and it didn't become a requirement to believe in the Trinity till the Catholic church deemed it so because of Arius trying to deny Jesus His full glory. The Catholic Church didn't rely on scripture, such as the content of Paul's letter:

Colossians 1

13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

To me - they answered a false assertion with a false answer. In saying this, understand I don't hold any grudges against trinitarians, nor do I think lesser of them, it's just how He has me believing.

I think its more important we keep our eyes on Jesus, and let the arguments fall to the way side.

God Bless!

:il:

[WayneB]

I have locked this thread saints. The discussion was going in circles and not getting anywhere.

In ALL fairness to Kyle, he conducted his end of the discussion with patience and kindness. I am not sure that he was given adequate time to respond to the last few posts but I just felt it was time to end this discussion. I pray you Kyle understand and that you will continue to fellowship with us in other forums and in other discussions.

Regardless, I will continue to pray for these boards and ask for God's guidance and intervention in the moderation of them. We must always be open to HIS TRUTH and should seek HIS direction in all we do, say and think.

Be Blessed saints,

Wayne