Trinity

[Guest TLCveritas]

This is my second post. One thing I have pondered is God isn't human. We often try to understand God in human terms. Hense we Anthropomorphize HIM. HE did create man from dust (according to genesis) HE has power and is a being we just can't comprehend. I have heard alot of different analogies over the years to try to define the trinity.. but the best example that a human might understand is a math problem. I see God as 1x1x1=1 not as 1+1+1=3

God the Father (1x) God the Son (1x) God the Holy Spirit (1x) = 1 God

Gen 1:2 (don't know how to do a bible quote yet...) says that the Holy Spirit was there with God in the beginning. So was the "LIGHT" ... Jesus said he was the light of the world. The Jews have a phrase called the "Shekinah" which manifests itself often as light. Could it be that John is correct in stating that

In the beginning there was the WORD... (read John 1:1-14)

If we do a word study on the WORD, we see that Jesus is the WORD

I hope this helped. Still trying to understand the whole trinity thing myself.

TLCveritas

[ksalzar]

Botz wrote....

Ksalzar...If Jesus is not G-d...how close to G-d is He?...I mean what distinguishes the Father from the Son? Bearing in mind what attributes make G-d,G-d.

Is He a lesser G-d...a separate created Being?

I just find it so hard to grasp what you are trying to say...and because of all the ideas floating around...I will pursue this one aspect. Thanks.

[ksalzar]

Whenever Paul says "all things" it is clear that the context ammends this statement. For example look at 1 Corinthians 15:

25 "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet."

But wait Paul didn't really mean every single thing for in the next statement he says:

27 "For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjeciton," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him."

The qualification is in the context, just as it is in Colossians.

Furthermore the Colossians account doesn't even say that Jesus created the heavens and the earth. It does say that things in the heavnes and on the earth were created, not that the heavens and the earth were created. This in and of itself limits the "all things" that you claim is so encompassing.

These are honest objections. Could you please address them, and explain to me how it is that you understand these points I just made.

I was just rereading our exchange and it hit me Kyle... (sometimes it takes awhile )

Your reference to 1 Corinthians 15:27 actually proves my point...that ALL THINGS is ALL encompassing. Only GOD in HIS fullness is not subjected to HIMSELF...so that God may be ALL in ALL. GOD was not created...HE was and is I AM.

Regarding Colossians, I say again... "All things" and "First place in everything". Pretty much covers ALL creation....dirt and flesh and all.

Be Blessed,

Wayne

I appreciate the fact that you are respectfull and thoughtfull in your comments, as opposed to the responses I have gotten from some of the others in this thread.

My objection is exactly that the text never says God is subjected to himself, it says Jesus Christ is subjected to God.

[ksalzar]

You say:"Jesus statement of "I AM" is not even gramatically used the same as God's decleration of His name in Exodus."

My comment: Then you cannot read English. Again, do not confuse your lack of spiritual understanding with the truth. The Lord Jesus Christ, in no uncertain terms, declared He was the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. He declared Himself God. He is either God, or you are calling Him a liar.

You refuse to accept the evidence:

Perhaps you could look at this evidence and respond to it for me then....

Now let us look at the grammatical use of the phrase "I am" by Jesus and by God and see if that supports the assertion that Jesus is employing the divine name.

First, Exodus 3:13-14:

• ...and they ask me, 'What is his name?' what shall I say to them? God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
  
  
  We see the way God uses the phrase "I AM" is consistent with someone identifying themselves with a name. For instance, if someone were to ask me my name, I would reply "I am Kyle". That person who asked me my name could go tell someone "Kyle has sent me to you". Both of these phrases make perfect sense.
  
  
  
  
  Now lets look at how Jesus uses the phrase "I am" grammatically.
  • Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
    

Let us do the same thing, and sub in my name, Kyle.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, Kyle."

As we can see, grammatically this does not line up with how God used the phrase in Exodus. If Jesus were drawing a direct connection to the divine name as revealed in Exodus 3:14, he would have needed to use the name in a similar way; in a way that made sense grammatically. This though, he did not do.

Nonsense-You "spin" more than the Roman Catholic Church amd Mormons. The Lord Jesus Christ, in 5th grade grammar, identified Himself as the great "I am" of the OT. You cannot see it, just as you cannot see that He identified Himself as "The Alpa and the Omega". You are spiritually blind. You cannot see the "I am's" of John. You will one day acknowledge that He is Lord=master, ruler, owner=deity.

Any Jew who heard His "I am" statements knew He was claiming to be God. Your denial does not change this fact. Again, Ksalzar,You have been told. Therefore, as it is written:

"A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject" Titus 3:10

In Christ,

John Whalen

So you respond to a legitimate objection with "Nonsense-You "spin" more than the Roman Catholic Church amd Mormons. The Lord Jesus Christ, in 5th grade grammar, identified Himself as the great "I am" of the OT. You cannot see it, just as you cannot see that He identified Himself as "The Alpa and the Omega". You are spiritually blind." Perhaps instead of simply berating me you could respond to my objection and open my eyes.

Thanks,

Kyle

Edited August 27, 2004 by ksalzar

[Guest LCPGUY]

Ksalzar, either you just don

[ksalzar]

Thanks Kyle for explaining yourself.  I haven't time to review the thread in detail so please forgive any redundancy.

I repeat, though...

From Colossians... "All things" and "First place in everything".  Pretty much covers ALL creation....dirt and flesh and all.  You have made some gravely false assumptions.

Regardless, the opening to the Gospel of John is not metaphorical.  How else can one read, "apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being"?  How have you reconciled your false understanding to it?  Kyle, open your heart to God's TRUTH.  Back away from notes in your Bible and other books.  Read HIS Word friend and rely on God's HOLY SPIRIT to give you understanding rather than some notes in the sidebar.

John chapter 1

The Deity of Jesus Christ

1

Edited August 27, 2004 by ksalzar

[ksalzar]

Ksalzar, either you just don

[Trinity]

Ill take 1 verse at a time.

You use this verse to prove Jesus wasn't God.

Col 3:10

and have put on the new self who is being renewd to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him-'

"image of the One who created him" means God made the Our "New Self" in the Image of His-self. Our "New self" Means New Spirit Our New Spirit is in the Image of God's Spirit, ill back myself up.

Ephesians 4:24

and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Remember "New self" means "New spirit," and it Just said Our "New Self is Like God's Spirit.

So, "image of the One who created him" we are in the Image of the one(God) who created the New Spirit.

So, I put on the New Man that was created by God for me.

--------------------------

I wouldn't use this verse to back up your claims dude

[Trinity]

You also tried using this verse to pove Jesus wasn't God

Ephesians 2:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

All this verse means is that Jesus recreated us for Good works. This verse has nothing to do with disprove Jesus' Deity.

[ksalzar]

You also tried using this verse to pove Jesus wasn't God

Ephesians 2:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

All this verse means is that Jesus recreated us for Good works. This verse has nothing to do with disprove Jesus' Deity.

You are not understanding my argument if you think I am using that verse to prove Jesus is not God.

I am doing no such thing.

I used this verse and the one you replied to above to show that the statements in the Colossians creation account are about the new creation which is through Christ, not the literal Genesis creation.

You have claimed that the Colossians creation account encompasses the literal creation of the heavens and earth, I have shown that this is not the case. It is to the exclusion of the literal creation of the heavens and the earth, for Paul even qualifies in the account itself ... "things in the heavens and on the earth".

My purpose with this is not to show Jesus is not God, but rather simply to show that this passage cannot be used to prove Jesus is God. We must look elsewhere to prove Jesus is God.

Please re-read my position.

Edited August 28, 2004 by ksalzar