Free Will and Predestination

[ksalzar]

Russell had posted this statement in a thread on Judas Iscariot in the Controversey section of these forums:

Can some one show me in the Bible where "free will" is mentioned. Can someone also show me where we get to choose Him.

Since I cannot post in that thread, and it is a doctrinal issue, I decided I would answer that by starting a new topic.

Let's look at Leviticus 1:3 and Leviticus 19:5 as an answer to your question:

Leviticus 1:3

If his offering is a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it of his own free will at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD.

Leviticus 19:5

And if you offer a sacrifice of a peace offering to the LORD, you shall offer it of your own free will.

Free will offerings are mentioned in the Old Testament. There is free will.

Next Russell said:

Interestingly... when you search out this word choose...just how many times in fact it is "THE LORD" or YHWH doing the choosing.

Pharaoh in the Exodus account is the best place to start I think. The reason is it is the most detailed account we have of how God works hardening peoples heart. Furthermore it is the account which the Apostle Paul appeals to in Romans 9 as a display of how God works his will.

In the Exodus account what we see is that Pharaoh is attributed with hardening his own heart many times before it is said that the LORD hardens Pharaoh's heart.

Which is perfectly inline with the New Testament witness of how God hardens peoples heart. Namely that people first refuse to love the truth, and then God hardens their heart:

Romans 1:21

For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness

Examples could be multiplied, but it is noteworthy to do a study of the account of Pharaoh in Exodus and see that he hardened his own heart many times to God's command prior to God hardening his heart. Which fits in perfectly with the verses I have just quoted which are the New Testament witness to how God hardens hearts.

Furthermore we have quotes from the book of Job as to how God works which I will save for another time.

Sincerely-

Kyle.

Edited August 22, 2004 by ksalzar

[johnP]

Hello Kyle.

A free will offering is just an offering over and above that which is commanded.

The NIV does not have it translated as free will. In fact free will is not in the NIV or KJV. What bible is being used?

As for Pharaoh, the whole purpose for his reign was to show that men have no free will.

Exodus 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

God made sure Pharaoh would not cede to Moses request.

It is God's will that is sovereign. It is God that made absolutely sure that Pharaoh's heart would be hard at the asking.

Romans 9:16-18 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Reason alone should have been enough for Pharaoh to let God's people go just through self presevation. To carry on resisting in the way he did proves that God was actively hardening his heart and not allowing Pharaoh to make the right choice.

Rom 11:7-8 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

johnp

[Guest Called]

Genesis 2

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Based on this verse it looks to me that from the beginning of creation, humanity has been given a free will to either choose or not choose to follow God. Otherwise it wouldn't be love, but slavery.

Edited August 23, 2004 by Called

[BobTriez]

Genesis 2

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Based on this verse it looks to me that from the beginning of creation, humanity has been given a free will to either choose or not choose to follow God. Otherwise it wouldn't be love, but slavery.

Yep

God bless,

Bob

[Trinity]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ rite

[ksalzar]

Hello Kyle.

A free will offering is just an offering over and above that which is commanded.

The NIV does not have it translated as free will. In fact free will is not in the NIV or KJV. What bible is being used?

As for Pharaoh, the whole purpose for his reign was to show that men have no free will.

Exodus 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

God made sure Pharaoh would not cede to Moses request.

It is God's will that is sovereign. It is God that made absolutely sure that Pharaoh's heart would be hard at the asking.

Romans 9:16-18 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Reason alone should have been enough for Pharaoh to let God's people go just through self presevation. To carry on resisting in the way he did proves that God was actively hardening his heart and not allowing Pharaoh to make the right choice.

Rom 11:7-8 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

johnp

I disagree with your understanding of these accounts. Perhaps instead of making a lengthy reply to them I could redirict your attention to some relevant verses.

Could you give me an explanation of the following?

Revelation 2:21

I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality

Job 36:10-12

He opens their ears to instruction and commands that they return from iniquity. If they listen and serve him, they complete their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasantness. But if they do not listen, they perish by the sword and die without knowledge.

Job 33:13-17

For God speaks in one way, and in two, though man does not perceive it. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on men, while they slumber on their beds, then he opens the ears of men and terrifies them with warnings, that he may turn man aside from his deed and conceal pride from a man.

Luke 7:30

But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Luke 13:6-9

And he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. And he said to the vinedresser, 'Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find no ne. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?' And he answered him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and put on manure. Then if it should beard fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.' "

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ksalzar

Good posts ksalzar and welcome to the boards looking forward to you getting your posts up to the level that will allow you to post in the controversial section.

All Praise The Ancient of Days

[ksalzar]

ksalzar

Good posts ksalzar and welcome to the boards looking forward to you getting your posts up to the level that will allow you to post in the controversial section.

All Praise The Ancient of Days

Thank you for the compliment.

I enjoy God's word and I'm sure we will all benefit from our discussions.

God Bless.

[johnP]

...looking forward to you getting your posts up to the level that will allow you to post in the controversial section.

This might be the thread to do it for both of us Kyle!

Revelation 2:21

I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

The fact that God gives us time to repent does not mean that He is saying we can of our own volition.

Job 36:10-12, Job 33:13-17.

This is Elihu speaking. Does he really speak for God?

Luke 7:30

I did not say we were unable to choose. I said we had no free will.

Luke 13:6-9

Man interceding for others is what we are called to do. Nevertheless our times are in His hands.

You disagreed with my understanding of those accounts. You said that God hardened his heart after Pharaoh hardened his own heart. I showed you that it was God's intention from the start to harden Pharaoh and did so, Exodus 4:21. Where am I wrong in this?

In the Exodus account what we see is that Pharaoh is attributed with hardening his own heart many times before it is said that the LORD hardens Pharaoh's heart.

With respect this is wrong isn't it?

Acts 4:26-28 The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the Lord and against his Anointed One.

Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

Are we restricting free will to mean that we have the choice to choose God or refuse Him, to choose right or wrong?

I enjoy God's word and I'm sure we will all benefit from our discussions.

And so do I, let us continue in this attitude and I too am sure we will all benefit.

Called.

Just for now Called let me leave Adam out of this otherwise the post will get too long.

As for free will, what is free about it. God says, "Do as I tell you or go to Hell."

Where is the freedom in that? Coercion is being applied is it not. A free will choice has no threat involved otherwise it is not free.

If you drop the free and leave choice then I still say we have no choice to make in and of ourselves. We are incapbale of the correct choice even when we know it is in our best interest.

johnp

[ksalzar]

...looking forward to you getting your posts up to the level that will allow you to post in the controversial section.

This might be the thread to do it for both of us Kyle!

Revelation 2:21

I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

The fact that God gives us time to repent does not mean that He is saying we can of our own volition.

Job 36:10-12, Job 33:13-17.

This is Elihu speaking. Does he really speak for God?

Luke 7:30

I did not say we were unable to choose. I said we had no free will.

Luke 13:6-9

Man interceding for others is what we are called to do. Nevertheless our times are in His hands.

You disagreed with my understanding of those accounts. You said that God hardened his heart after Pharaoh hardened his own heart. I showed you that it was God's intention from the start to harden Pharaoh and did so, Exodus 4:21. Where am I wrong in this?

In the Exodus account what we see is that Pharaoh is attributed with hardening his own heart many times before it is said that the LORD hardens Pharaoh's heart.

With respect this is wrong isn't it?

Acts 4:26-28 The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the Lord and against his Anointed One.

Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

Are we restricting free will to mean that we have the choice to choose God or refuse Him, to choose right or wrong?

I enjoy God's word and I'm sure we will all benefit from our discussions.

And so do I, let us continue in this attitude and I too am sure we will all benefit.

Called.

Just for now Called let me leave Adam out of this otherwise the post will get too long.

As for free will, what is free about it. God says, "Do as I tell you or go to Hell."

Where is the freedom in that? Coercion is being applied is it not. A free will choice has no threat involved otherwise it is not free.

If you drop the free and leave choice then I still say we have no choice to make in and of ourselves. We are incapbale of the correct choice even when we know it is in our best interest.

johnp

Good stuff, I'm happy to see your replies are honest and respectfull. I think we will discuss just fine

I will reply when I have some time, as for a short reply...

Your responses are true blue calvinist, good fun

As for you wanting me to defend my position on the Exodus account, GOOD CALL!

I will give you a detailed post when I have time, I enjoy people who call you out and make you defend your position, instead of just letting it slide. I just didn't want to post a long detailed response if it was going to overwhelm.

God Bless