Free Will and Predestination

[johnP]

Hello Bob.

It's good to see you. Hope you are well.

Any reason why free will has to diminish God's sovereignty ? He IS God you know.

Yes I know but the point is that He would not be God if something happened that He had not ordained.

You simply cannot answer my question of sin can you ? If God predestined the reprobate, then sin must be a part of His master plan ? Hmmmm....don't like the sound of that - do you ?

No of course I don't like the sound of that but it is correct! Leave out the predetinate to Hell. I'll rephrase your point as; If God predestined anyone, then sin must be a part of His master plan ?

Sin is a major part of His plan.

Hmmmm....don't like the sound of that - do you ?

No. But nor do you.

johnp

[Guest Called]

Hello Bob.

It's good to see you. Hope you are well.

Any reason why free will has to diminish God's sovereignty ? He IS God you know.

Yes I know but the point is that He would not be God if something happened that He had not ordained.

You simply cannot answer my question of sin can you ? If God predestined the reprobate, then sin must be a part of His master plan ? Hmmmm....don't like the sound of that - do you ?

No of course I don't like the sound of that but it is correct! Leave out the predetinate to Hell. I'll rephrase your point as; If God predestined anyone, then sin must be a part of His master plan ?

Sin is a major part of His plan.

Hmmmm....don't like the sound of that - do you ?

No. But nor do you.

johnp

:x:

[BobTriez]

Sin is a major part of His plan.

God is the author of sin ?

[Guest bobdamitch]

Keep going, BOb...it gets worse than that....

They are adamant and wrong, but you will never be able to convince them otherwise.

I saw many good Christians give up trying to reason with them on another board.

I tried to defend the Faith there for a number of years....maybe actually since about 2000...they got many a Christian canned because the board masters leaned heavily to calvinism....finally I was banned for challenging them on whether they were correct in their adamant holdings that babies who die in infancy go to hell...most of them hold that belief and at least a couple of them seemed to enjoy making such a declaration, despite the admonitions of Jesus, and scriptures concerrning the death of David's son...

and .....I was also pursuaded that a Christian witness did not include drinking alcohol....so any time you say something that refutes boldly their thesis, they jump to the board masters and tell them that you have stepped on their june bug, even though they called me everything but a saint of God. I never responded in kind.

I think that there are enough strong Christians here to defend the Faith...although when I left the other board, God raised up a couple of individuals that could give any of them a run for their money....and maybe they did....

I have been over this road before and will hang back and see what they say to you all....

God help your witness to them.......bob mitchell....

[johnP]

nuqneH Qun Mang.

You know, I'm beginning to think that whether we act by order of free will or predestination doesn't matter. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is sounding like one of those old Earth/young Earth arguments in that it doesn't really matter which you believe to be correct as long as Christ is first in your life.

Yes you could liken it to that. With the old earth young earth argument you have one group ignoring explicit scripture. The creation story has been taken into the Twilight Zone because God's word is disbelieved.

What that argument comes down to is, can we trust God's word or not. Obviously many do not think so. So it is with predestination. We decide what God is like and we treat those scriptures that conflict with our opinion as something nice people don't look into.

I'm not one to look for signs of predestination as I believe the Calvinists did (still do?), so I will live my life as if the decision to accept Jesus Christ is mine and once I have chosen (I have) I will try to live a Christian life (still working on that- I am heavily struggling with passivity and all that entails like praying but not trying to change, procrastination, etc... However that's another topic).

We don't need to look for signs we read the scriptures.

I will try to live a Christian life

How if you are wrong?

Whether my choices are due to predestination or not I will never know so why should it matter as long as I try to live for Christ?

Never know. Is that prophesy?

Why should it matter?

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Give : to confer the ownership of without receiving a return : make a present of.

Or is that me looking for signs?

This does matter! You cannot change yourself. You cannot choose how you worship God. He makes demands on you to worship Him in spirit and truth. It matters one way or another.

johnp

[johnP]

Bob.

God is the author of sin ?

Why?

bobdamitch.

and will hang back and see what they say to you all....

They?

johnp

[BobTriez]

God is the author of sin ?

Why?

You tell me...you said it.

[johnP]

Come on bobdamitch. (Post 30)

That is just a tirade meant to make you feel better.

Why hang back?

Why make accusations against me and not stand to account?

Bearing false witness is still a sin the last time I looked.

All you have done is reinforce those that feel like you and brought the word of God into disrepute. Don't you know we are called to love one another. There are non Christians reading this stuff, what impression have you left them with?

Why do people keep bringing people to the argument?

Do you judge the truth by the people?

Come on then stand to account.

What's your beef?

johnp

[johnP]

Bob.

You tell me...you said it.

Where?

johnp

[BobTriez]

Bob.

You tell me...you said it.

Where?

johnp

Right here -

No of course I don't like the sound of that but it is correct! Leave out the predetinate to Hell. I'll rephrase your point as; If God predestined anyone, then sin must be a part of His master plan ?

Sin is a major part of His plan.

I can't speak for the other Bob, but I'll tell you my beef. As I said, I used to be a hard core Calvinist...to the "hyper" extreme almost.....and I liked it. Why ? Made for an easy Christian life. I was lazy. Then I realized that there was a major flaw in one of the points ( P ) and as you readily admitted John, it's a domino doctrine....one goes, they all fall. There are some parts of Calvinism that I find to have a little merit ? But for the most part, it's a dangerous doctrine. From personal experience, I never really knew what conviction & repentance was. What was the point ? I was saved, right ? Anyway; that's my position for what it's worth.

I've been right where you are today; that's why I'm not saying a whole lot....I know it's going to take a conviction of the Holy Spirit to make you see the error of it....not a thing I can do will change that - and I know you believe that since everything is already planned out for us ? Sorry mate, just can be so. I hold no hatred for you John, most of my family is Calvinist; and they are sincere Christians. But Calvinism is not something to be espoused by a new believer IMHO...it's dangerous and can make for a lazy Christian...and we know what happens to lukewarm Christians don't we ?

God bless,

Bob