Free Will and Predestination

[johnP]

Hello Bob.

'hatred'? Never crossed my mind man.

johnp

[ServingHim]

Bearing false witness is still a sin the last time I looked.

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear JohnP,

This is just my opinion, you do not have to accept it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

You are correct. If there is an omnipotent God, it makes perfect sense that the universe is ordered in the way that it would please such an omnipotent being. If little old human me chooses (for whatever reasons) not to believe in such a God, it must be because God wills it so. God must have fabricated the reasons by which I do not believe. It must be his will. If it weren't his will, he could surely change those reasons. He could appear in front of me now as I type on this computer. He surely can do as he wills.

Of course, I don't know if I will forever be not believing in God. I cannot see the future. But if God has foreknowledge and can see the future, he knows. He can plan for things to happen to convince me of his existence, if he desires. He can also not plan for things to happen, and let me continue not believing in him, if he desires. So in a sense John, I do not really have any free choice (read freewill), but to do as I do because it is planned that I do it that way. Perhaps God has purposefully hardened my heart to him as he did Pharoah. I do not know. I can only do as I see fit to do, as much as anyone else does.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[Guest bobdamitch]

John....I still have not figured out which one you are...

But...I am fairly used to being called a liar by the calvinists...

When they cannot refute what is said in scripture, they resort to personal ad hominum....

When you attack a man for what you call a lie, why not be of kind enough to explain the nature of the lie?

Now I dont think you missed it...but my point was that calvinists DO believe that God is soveriegn...no doubt of it....and that God shows his mercy....but calvinists do not like to see the truth of God's mercy....that being that God, all knowing the future has/does change what He has intended to have come to pass, hence "prayer changes things", or perhaps you in your statement that you do not believe that the "prayer of a rightesous man availeth much...."

Now "spare no arrows", if that is your former name, or whatever name you were, why doncha cut to the chase and dont be shy and tell them all the stuff you believe....such as. in addition to God not answering prayer, that you believe that God sends infant babies who die to hell....

And...you just mentioned about "unsaved'" people looking at this board...well, that is just the point, isn't it? Senseless to try to evangalize them from your viewpoint, right? He can only be saved.....IF....God has chosen him for salvation. All others go to hell...and you have already admitted, if I recall that you said that God is the author of sin...and that men are sent to hell without ever having the hope of salvation...ever...and discount most of John 1 through 4....

Now...corrrrrect me if I am wrong...but don't yet belittle yourself by calling me a liar again....it kinda reflects on you, John....these are nice people on this board.

....er....Just to inform...on the other board, the calvinists were so thick and swarmy and supported by the board that they called themselves the "calvinist mafia....." There may have been one or two of them that saw the light, hopefully....but it had to be the Spirit of Christ who showed it to them...certainly their hearts were hardened to anything I may have showed them. But they cant refute the Word or the Spirit.

One thing you will have to do in contending for the Faith is to study and re study the Word and that is the best thing that can happen to us save the direct intervention of the convicting power of the Holy Spirit....

Lord, send the Holy Spirit into my life....help me to be renewed in the Spirit of Life.... There IS a Lighthouse on a Hillside.....that overlooks life's sea... I thank God for that Lighthouse.....without which where would this fool be....?

[johnP]

Hello UndecidedFrog.

So in a sense John, I do not really have any free choice (read freewill)

Why should it be harder then to ask Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins than not ask?

You have only to ask and you will be forgiven. No strings attached.

johnp

[Guest bobdamitch]

be careful not to drop the other shoe, John....

Well the other shoe and the other boot....

As I understand you, you will tell him that God regenerated him to allow him to repent.

MOST Christians I know admit that only a person can and will confess Christ and repent of his sins under the convicting power of the Mighty Holy Spirit....

Many "calvininsts" believe that only those elected by God MAY Be saved, and those so elect cannot make any other choice.

CAlvinists also believe that all others are doomed to hell before they were ever born and without hope forever.... I dont believe that the Bible teaches anything like that....that the Spirit brings people to CHrist in volitional repentence through the convicting power of the Holy Spirit..... GO back and read the "mission statement" of the Holy Spirit...to seek and save that which is lost....

[johnP]

Hello Bobdamitch.

...calvinists do not like to see the truth of God's mercy...

But that is bound to be wrong. You can't know all Calvinists can you? You make general statements and all is included. You can't mean scripturally because no scripture was brought to bear.

..."prayer of a rightesous man availeth much...."

Yes of course it does but it must be righteous and we ain't are we? So the prayer must originate in God. And that is what it says;

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

In Romans 8:26-27. And that is flipping brilliant because we don't cut the mustard do we, be honest?

Now "spare no arrows", if that is your former name, or whatever name you were, why doncha cut to the chase and dont be shy and tell them all the stuff you believe....such as. in addition to God not answering prayer, that you believe that God sends infant babies who die to hell....

I am not him but he seems like a man I would like to meet!

I don't think I have had the pleasure of meeting you till now. It's good to meet you. Peace.

I am telling them all the stuff I know and have not withheld a single nasty thing that was relevant and to the point. There is a lot more nasty things.

I never said He does not answer prayer but I say He always answers His prayers, Rom 8:26-27. This is why we should find out His will, so we know what He is up to!

How can you ask me to cut to the chase I wound you up fast enough didn't I?

Now...corrrrrect me if I am wrong...but don't yet belittle yourself by calling me a liar again....it kinda reflects on you, John....these are nice people on this board.

I am sorry and I opologise to you but it was not the truth was it? To the rest I opologise unreservedly.

I am a Calvinist. To me Calvin is just a man prone to error. He is not a Pope. I believe children are saved as a class and can back that with scripture I think. Not all Calvinists believe everthing Calvin said but you can engage them in scriptural debate because we like talking about Jesus. So your statement did lack the truth didn't it? It should have read 'some Calvinists'.

Senseless to try to evangalize them from your viewpoint, right?

I don't know if this is a question or a statement.

Do you really understand Calvinism or just some Calvinists?

I was saved through a bloke that knocked on my door one night. A Christian doorknocker! In a bad part of town. within a week or so of attending a local Evangelical church I was a member of an outreach team going about in a bad part of town. That's odd ain't it, knocking on strangers front doors to tell them about Jesus? It never embrassed me but I always thought it a bit odd.

If I said that God is the author of sin or it appeared in my posts as a conclusion of a statement of mine then bring your evidence. I plead not guilty I think! I remember answering once, "Now you can't expect me to say that God is the author of sin can you?" Or some such thing.

If I said it or implied it I retrack it.

"calvinist mafia....."

That is an easy fall to fall. All gifts carry the danger of elitism. 1 Cor 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

We forget this too quickly. We are sinners and each of us should correct one another when this is forgotten. Can you change your mind and accept what I say? Of course not and neither can I change my mind and accept what you say. But that should be a spur to make us make sure of all things.

...but it had to be the Spirit of Christ who showed it to them...

Have you changed sides or something?

One thing you will have to do in contending for the Faith is to study and re study the Word and that is the best thing that can happen to us save the direct intervention of the convicting power of the Holy Spirit....

But this is all I want to do. I want to uphold the truth and so do you. Let's see how much you can give to me and me to you brother. I want to talk about Jesus.

johnp

[johnP]

Anyway; that's my position for what it's worth.

I think it worth a lot Bob.

Shall we take Hebrews chapther six apart and see how we tapdance together? I used to call it the soft shoe shuffle meself until I went to a posh church where I found it to be called exegesis : critical interpretation of a text or portion of Scripture : more at seek.

But Calvinism is not something to be espoused by a new believer IMHO...it's dangerous and can make for a lazy Christian...and we know what happens to lukewarm Christians don't we ?

To a new believer. I understand the danger. It can send you to sleep. It does not happen to me really. I don't think that I will end up like those five virgins who slept until their master's waker upper woke them up, Matt 25:1 but Jesus did say the Kingdom of God would be like so.

For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. Acts 20:27. As far as possible I obey this command.

In Christ

johnp

[Guest bobdamitch]

If a man does not have both to will and do according to his own devices as well as to yield to the will of God for his life....then why are Scriptures like Exekiel 3 and Ezekiel 33 addressing him? Why is it that Joshua "chose this day whom (ye) shall serve"? Why are scriptures like Proverbs 29:1 in the Bible? And, for instance scriptures like Iasiah 57:15-21 if man makes no choice, is not a free moral agent, capable of both sin and obedience?

Hebrews 6? Yes...I believe Hebrews 6....I also believe that man can reject Christ...and that Christ will not always continue to call (See Prverbs 29).....But I believe as Paul that I know whom I have believed and am pursuaded that HE is ABLE to KEEP that which I HAVE COMMITTED unto Him against that day. Also...whom God loveth, he chasteneth....why is that if man is not held safe in the cleft of the Rock, why would he just not have grace withdrawn when he sins? No the gift of God is without call back. Neither does He depend upon us to "keep" it through man pleasing or works. Quench not the Spirit....(why did He say that?)

Rejoice evermore....not sometimes, not up to and until, but evermore. Amen.

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear JohnP,

This is just my opinion, and you may discard it if you don't like it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Why should it be harder then to ask Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins than not ask?

It is not hard to ask anything.

It is harder to ask a being in sincerity, if you do not believe such a being exists. Would you want me to ask without the belief? It would be like lying. I do not believe, because, according to your view, God has hardened my heart. And since God is omnipotent and omniscient, that must be his will. I must just be fulfilling it, as God designed.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog