Free Will and Predestination

[johnP]

Hello UndecidedFrog.

I was really asking you to give a shout in a dark place. You may not believe anyone is there but you do not know for sure. I have been told to call people to Christ and Christ tells us that we are dead spiritually. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 1 Cor 2:14-15.

It's not deceit but making sure. The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? Jer 17:9.

You are trusting your fallen nature and your fallen nature is lying to you. The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Rom 8:7-8.

We used to have fogs in London so bad you could not see your hand front of your face. I remember people used to shout out, "Where am I?" And other people used to shout back their location. It is a matter of trust whether you believe it or not. Sometimes you have just got to put what you believe aside.

You would only be being honest by admitting that you might be wrong even when you believe you are not.

You have set a moral standard which will take you to Hell.

I'll read up on that Pascal's Wager.

I don't believe I asked you to lie to yourself. If the heart is deceitful above all things we can not be sure of anything from within us that's all.

johnp

[johnP]

Bob.

It's not ?!?!?!?

No it is not. Because we cannot trust ourselves. It self righteousness. If I must go to Him believing sincerely, when He says I can't trust what is in me, can only be a false perception if we think we can be sincere in and of ourselves because the sinful mind is hostile to God. If sincerity is good it must come from God.

When I prayed to Jesus for the first time it was to get a pastor off my back. I was speaking to the air when He came to meet me. Half way through the prayer I was no longer talking to the air but talking with the Sheperd who came to find me. This came as something of a shock seeing as I did not believe or care about God.

johnp

[tsth]

Dear JohnP,

I would like to ask that you consider this thread:

THE QUESTION

I would like to hear your comments on it, and see the thread revived to coincide with this one.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[johnP]

Hello bobdamitch.

As I understand you, you will tell him that God regenerated him to allow him to repent.

Is it any use talking to a dead man about life? Regeneration must take place first so you are alive and able to see spiritually.

MOST Christians I know admit that only a person can and will confess Christ and repent of his sins under the convicting power of the Mighty Holy Spirit....

Maybe so but He does not go to all men does He?

He convicts and leads but not all men get the opportunity do they? What use is the golden calf of free will to these ones?

Many "calvininsts" believe that only those elected by God MAY Be saved, and those so elect cannot make any other choice.

That is the truth. But it is not as if the scripture is silent on the matter is it? For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world, Eph 1:4. Since you say we must have free will then it is you with the contradiction isn't it.

CAlvinists also believe that all others are doomed to hell before they were ever born and without hope forever

Calvinists believe a lot of things.

What do the scriptures say?

Jesus said to one group that, "You do not believe because you are not my sheep". John 10:26. He did not say they were not His sheep because they did not believe. He came to gather the sheep not the goats, Matt 1:21. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

His people are not everyone. If they are then Jesus failed.

Hebrews 6? Yes...I believe Hebrews 6....I also believe that man can reject Christ...and that Christ will not always continue to call (See Prverbs 29).....But I believe as Paul that I know whom I have believed and am pursuaded that HE is ABLE to KEEP that which I HAVE COMMITTED unto Him against that day.

But how do you have two seperate beliefs running at the same time? Either you keep it or He keeps you. One or the other.

...but is meek and lowly.....meaning tender and caring and does not wrench people to receive His Holy Spirit...

Cares enough for you that He allows you your opinion and lets you freely go to Hell? That is tender loving care?

Those He has not chosen He hates.

...the Atonement is sufficient...

It is.

...and available to all men...

It is available to all who believe but not all men are covered by the Atonment. See Eli's sons. Isa 3:12-14 says that Jesus did not die for them.

Nobody has ever been dragged, screaming and protesting, into Faith and confession of Christ....

Nobody has said He does, He can do as He pleases, but that He changes the persons will. What you say is a misrepresentation and just muddies the water.

Ok Suzanne I'll have a look.

johnp

[johnP]

Greetings Suzanne.

I would like to hear your comments on it, and see the thread revived to coincide with this one.

Oh great! You get all the applause and I get all the rocks!

Went off the rails a bit didn't it? I mean from the bread of life to a quarter pounder cheeseburger!

(in other words, carry on as you were, but be aware that there will be people who get angry at you for speaking the truth...so carry on and spread the Gospel with love...as you are)

How'd yer get away with it is the question is it?

I would like to hear your comments on it, and see the thread revived to coincide with this one.

I can see pros and cons for reviving it where it is and for bringing it here. It is relevant here and I recommend everyone to read it. (Just your post)

There may be some around who would feel intimidated by speaking on this thread. A new thread could produce a whole new perspective on how we respond to one another. The kitchen is not everyones idea of debate.

Why should the meek, men and women, miss out because they are timid or see no point in fighting?

Not that I am telling you how to run your thread, it was just a thought.

...but be aware that there will be people who get angry at you for speaking the truth...

Just send them over here and I will advertise your place.

I don't know it is just an opinion and a thought. All the best with your decision.

I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps. Jer 10:23.

johnp

[tsth]

Oh, goodness! I guess I should have gone back and read it ALL!!! Sorry about that. Well, you caught the gist of it anyway.

It still brings into question how Calvinism will coincide with it though? If you are in agreement, and if man CAN recognize that he is a sinner and in need of a Savior, and if the dialogue between God and Cain makes sense, then wouldn't you agree that Cain had a choice to make? If not, then why the conversation with God at all? What was the point?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear BobTriez,

This is just my opinion, if you don't like it, you don't have to accept it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

And you need not disclaim my friend....you do not account to me, rather to God.....and He knows your heart better than you do.

I have had mixed results on the disclaimer above. Some reader like it, for example:

While I disagree with you, I do appreciate you using the disclaimer to preface your advice. That really shows respect.

And I hear you about the fact that I do not need the disclaimer. Just understand I do the disclaimer to warn the unwary readers (not God, for as you say he already knows, and as you may know, I don't believe to exist) that my opinions are not divinely inspired.

Thank you for the concern.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[Guest bobdamitch]

I believe that man is "dead in treaspasses and in sin...but that does not probibit nor inhibit man from rational thought and decision making.

THe Bible is REPLETE with conscious decisions of both the saved and the sinner.

why have you not responded to the scripture such as Ezekiel 3 then 33 as I proposed? Are those dead? And...where GOd mentions "righteous" individuals, you saying that only God is righteous...they are righteous in respect as man can only as righteous as he can be graded by comparisons to other men.....

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear Suzanne,

This is just my opinion.

Edited September 4, 2004 by UndecidedFrog

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear JohnP,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you don't like it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Thank you for your response and clarification. You meant for me to shout into a dark place with an open mind. Yes, JohnP, I have done that. In fact, I have done that several times with nary an answer. In fact, JohnP, I will shout out now as I type on this computer...Hello God, if you exist, please show me an undeniable sign before the end of the weekend. If you exist, and you are the God which many claim, you should know what sign to give me that would be undeniable to me.

JohnP, is that the shout out you described?

You are trusting your fallen nature and your fallen nature is lying to you. The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

JohnP, I do not believe that I have a fallen nature, or a sinful mind. I am not hostile to God. Please remember that I do not believe in God. It is ridiculous to think that I would be hostile to what I consider to be non-existent, unless you believe I belong in a psycho ward.

You would only be being honest by admitting that you might be wrong even when you believe you are not.

You have set a moral standard which will take you to Hell.

Yes, I may be wrong in my beliefs and disbeliefs. This is true for most everyone. The only thing I can be sure of is that my current position is the accumulations of my experience. But I have an open mind, and I am willing to consider any evidence contrary to my current position. Are you? As for the Hell bit, remember, that I don't believe in that either, but I feel I must thank you for that kind thought.

I don't believe I asked you to lie to yourself. If the heart is deceitful above all things we can not be sure of anything from within us that's all.

I'm glad we cleared that up. Thank you for not asking me to lie to myself. I think you meant my mind being deceitful. My heart doesn't do much else than pump blood and collect fat in its arteries. My mind may be deceitful, but I think it has served me well since I was born, and I have not had many bad experiences with it such that I needed to discipline it severly. And I thank you for your concern.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog