Free Will and Predestination

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear bobdamitch,

This is just my opinion, and you may disregard it if you don't like it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

dont think it is cute or particularly informative that a person begin EACH post with the same mantra as an apparent badge of some merit..in that he must inform repeatedly .."I am not a christian".....

If I want to draw obverse attention to myself as a means of controversy or directed attention I only have to say it once to get it said in a thread.

I'm sorry you don't think my simple statements of truth as cute or informative. As I have said before, some people like it. Others like yourself do not. But I post it as a warning to the unwary readers that my opinions are not divinely inspired. I do it out of respect, and as a promise to one of the admins who PMed me.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[johnP]

Why are you so aggressive bobdamitch?

What is it that causes this behaviour?

I can't understand why while sharing God's love very little of it shows.

We are called to be hospitable to strangers and foreigners are we not?

We do not represent ourselves or our own opinions, except where we do not know God's will, why are you so upset over trifles?

As I said before; this area of God's word is carrying life and death around with it. It is serious and certainly no place for bad behaviour. It is difficult enough already there is no room for movement of a personal nature here.

This is a very narrow path that we are trying to negotiate and there are few enough that find it.

Please, I ask you in the Lord, be at peace with us and treat us with some respect as fellow sinners out of reverance for Christ.

johnp

[Trinity]

Why are you so aggressive bobdamitch?

What is it that causes this behaviour?

Because God planned out what he was going to say.... duh... it wasn't his choise to say it, God planned it that way...

hahaha Just playing with you brotha John Just thought i'd through in that point didn't mean to come across mean, because i like ye, your a nice guy

[Guest bobdamitch]

The Apostle Paul certainly gives an understanding of where one stands...

After doing all you can....stand.

Of course, Paul withstood Peter to his face..."because he was wrong."

Because I am not touchy-feely you think I have no desire to sincerely have people understand the Gospel of Jesus Chirist?

I get the impression that Festus, having rejected the Gospel, then made it a point to scorn Paul telling him how he ought to act at a Christian.

This is intending to be a doctrinal discussion of free will and predestination. How is it that you are not intent on discussing the will of God for our lives instead of implicitly dancing around calvinistic dogma while trying to be evangelistic?

For starters you could invite those who expressly make a point of not being "born again Christian" to the tenents of calvinism, which may be a bit difficult to explain, given the bottom line of its' overt declaration that the opportunity for salvation is not available to every man, but only those elected before the world began, which is the very point of the very point.

And...you seemingly refuse to accunt for the influence of satan in the hinderance of man....do you not accept the scriptures?

Make your points of the tulip...declare that salvation is not available to ANY, ALL, AS MANY AS, A NUMBER THAT NO MAN COULD NUMBER, and WHOSOEVER WILL...which is what the Gospel of Christ teaches....salvation is not prohibited to any man.....but there comes a day when God will no longer strive with man....God does not look with favor at the haughty and the self righteous, but a humble and contrite heart God will not reject.

And forget your mantra about a dead man. Ultimately men die an go to hell. It is the wages of sin...that is where the term "dead man walking" occurs in reference. We are all dead and without hope without a risen Christ as saviour, who in raising HIMSELF from the dead demonstrated his determination and ability to raise us too, after the simile of Himself, if we walk with Him and receive Him in FAITH.....so without FAITH, it is impossible to please God. "THe measure of Faith" is given to us by God....we cannot continue to throw personal mantras at God in defiance, such will God have in derision. But a willing, humble and contrite heart God will not reject.....God knows the purposes and intents of our hearts and is not fooled by flippancy and luke warm dares that start out "If you are God...", not inviting a fleece as in Gideon unless it suits His purpose.

So....if you will, just start in Ezekiel and explain chapters 3 and 33 in veiw of free will and predestination.

[johnP]

Hello Trinity.

Nice one!

It is difficult to work out sometimes.

2 Sam 16:10 But the king said, "What do you and I have in common, you sons of Zeruiah? If he is cursing because the LORD said to him, `Curse David,' who can ask, `Why do you do this?' "

But we are told to correct one another as well.

johnp

[johnP]

bobdamitch.

Because I am not touchy-feely you think I have no desire to sincerely have people understand the Gospel of Jesus Chirist?

No I don't think that at all. You are here talking about Jesus and that's not bad. I try to have the utmost respect for everyone I meet especially to those Jesus died for. I regard you as a brother and I expect, as brothers, to have disagreements. It's how we handle the difficult times that brings God glory. It is Him who we must live for.

...dancing around calvinistic dogma while trying to be evangelistic?

Good mover ain't I?

But why say it? You are trying to sway opinion by going out of scripture. This does nothing for the advancement of the gospel does it? Slanging each other does not do that.

For starters you could invite those who expressly make a point of not being "born again Christian" to the tenents of calvinism, which may be a bit difficult to explain, given the bottom line of its' overt declaration that the opportunity for salvation is not available to every man, but only those elected before the world began, which is the very point of the very point.

And the point is that I preach the whole will of God. I am not deciding which bits to leave out. I try to be not guilty for the loss of anyone through faulty doctrine. I tell people that this God of ours is not the lovely dovey frilly thing He has been turned into by us. The, 'overt declaration that the opportunity for salvation is not available to every man' must be included in the call to people. My sheep recognise my voice Jesus said and this is an important part of that voice.

And...you seemingly refuse to accunt for the influence of satan in the hinderance of man....do you not accept the scriptures?

What do you mean 'don't I accept the scriptures?

I thought you said this Satan thing in an inappropriate way. Giving the warning without how to avoid this pit is useless.

What did I do but tell someone to go to Jesus and ask Him himself? This is hardly the action of the dark side is it?

Of all the things Satan is able to do this is one thing that he would avoid like the plague. But there is danger. Which side decreases God's sovereignity, yours or mine?

...declare that salvation is not available to ANY, ALL, AS MANY AS, A NUMBER THAT NO MAN COULD NUMBER, and WHOSOEVER WILL...

That is a misapplication of scripture. I believe that anyone who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved. That is how it is stated in scripture. It is not stated that it is open to all but to those who call.

So....if you will, just start in Ezekiel and explain chapters 3 and 33 in veiw of free will and predestination.

I shall but you should also apologise to the frog. He gave you a more than adequate response and left you out to dry.

Humble yourself. We can't have a log like that laying on the path.

I will get on and read those chapters now. All the best.

johnp

[Guest bobdamitch]

YOU, Johnny may be right....I assumed that the pronouncements of the "frog" assumed an understanding of the Gospel....

So...I would suggest that a good experinece would be to read the first four chapters of the Gospel of St John....in fact, the entire book, but the Gospel can be understood therein.

Then....perhaps read the First Epistle of John....then the book of Jude....

THen...unless you wish to take the time which is encouraged to read the whole book, read Hebrews 1, 2,3, 4 and 5. then 10 and 11 and 12....of course this does not preclude reading the entire book, since you may have read that many chapters, and if you, I, we...have read the entire book before...read it again.

[johnP]

Greetings bobdamitch.

You went a long way with your last post. A little further would be good.

I started with 33 because it's near 34. Have you read Eze 34 recently? I will bring that to you in response to this.

Eze 33:1-6.

The Lord explains generally about the duty of a watchman in times of trouble. This is not spiritual but temporal. If a man heeds the warnings he receives he can duck in time.

33:7-9. God makes Ezekiel a watchman over Israel in the same way but spiritual and gives the watchman the first warning! Tell them what I tell you to tell them otherwise you will be accountable for their blood.

verse 9 But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will have saved yourself.

Saved yourself from being held accountable that is. Not saved yourself as in saving yourself. Eli was held accountable for the loss of his sons because he failed to restrain them. But he is still a man of God because his response is that of a man of God. "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." Isa 3:18.

33:10-11 Israel claims her sins are too heavy and that they are dominated by them to the point of death. They ask, "How can we live?"

God answers them. Turn from your ways.

33:12-20

verse 12 All the good you have ever done is of no use to you and will not be regarded if you sin.

verse 13 If you trust in your righteousness and do evil! Faith without works is dead. James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

But all of this is chapter God saying that if you do right then you will live and if you do wrong you die. Nothing else is being taught but obey the law is it not?

Verse 20 says that He will judge each man according to his ways.

If you do right you live and if you do wrong you die.

The Israelites claim God to be unfair but He told them through Moses that that was the deal. That's the way it stands. Can anyone keep the law? Of course not but God has told us that if we do we will live and if we don't we die. So they say God is unfair. Just the point I was making I think. God tells us to do things we can't do.

33:21-22 Israel fail again! Jerusalem falls. A familar sound isn't it? What a shower they were but they are a type of the reality! If they are a shower we are wouldn't you say?

Seems like God left Ezekiel catching flies.

33:23-24 The Israelites rely on their heritage and not God. They think they can behave has they want because Abraham was their father.

33:25-27 God puts them straight as to their ways and reminds them that they are not judged on who their father was but on what they do. James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

33:28-29 The judgement continues and Israel is told that their land is to be laid waste. When this happens they will know that the Lord is Lord not Israel. The Lord is sovereign not us.

33:30-33 The people's hearts are wrong. They listen but do not, they see but forget and their words are just gas.

The preacher is "...one who sings love songs with a beautiful voice and plays an instrument well..."

The prophet is to be believed when his prophecy comes to pass.

What yer think? It does not bother me this passage though on first reading it again I thought I'd bitten off more than I could chew. On first reading this sounded like a doctrine of works and so it was. It is about law and the thing about law is that not only can we not keep it but that it should teach us faith. This chapter does not teach the ability to do good.

I haven't read Eze 3 yet. I thought I'd see you response first on Eze 34:

I will start it off because this just came to mind.

Exe 34:1-10.

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. John 10:11-13 describes Eze 34:1-10 I think.

If you could carry on from verse 11 I would be grateful.

Thanks.

johnp

[johnP]

How about this?

Elect angels.

I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism. 1 Titus 5:21.

Elect men.

Matt 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. Matt 24:24; 24:31; Mk 13:20; 13:22; 13:27; Rom 11:7; 1 Tim 5:21; 2 Tim 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1.

Rom 11:7-8 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

Israel earnestly sought to be God's and they did it with sincerity. They were zealous for Him yet did not obtain what they aimed at.

Why not. Because they were hardened by God. Those not looking for Him found Him because they were the elect.

Elect:

1 : chosen especially by preference or for excellence : carefully selected : EXCLUSIVE, CHOICE <considered themselves a very elect group>

2 a : chosen for office or position but not yet installed -- usually used after the noun <president-elect> <delegate-elect> b : chosen for marriage at some future time to a specified person <bride-elect>

3 : chosen as an object of divine mercy of favor : set apart for eternal life -- used in theology <to elect souls a Redeemer comes down who reveals the secret knowledge -- W.F.Howard>

Elect means chosen. You cannot elect yourself, no comments on President Bush please, can you?

Be honest. when have we ever elected ourselves to any position. You may have elected a course of action but that still means to choose.

Titus 1:1-3 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness-- 2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3 and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior

Paul says that he is God's servant for the faith of God's elect. That his service is one of building faith in God's elected, chosen, people and that they are God's election.

God's elect, the chosen, those God selected out of a greater number.

He says a knowledge of the truth leads to Godliness. He does not say that it might but that it does. Only the truth leads this way. Error then must lead to unGodliness, is that right?

If you are not making progress in your Christian life it is not because you do not try hard enough, you don't repent good enough or anything other than not having the correct knowledge. The truth will lead to Godliness.

Our faith and knowledge allow us to believe God's promise of eternal life because we believe God. Our hope is in Him and He says He promised before the world began that His elect will live forever. That's where faith is. To believe that Jesus paid our debt completely. I have the promise of God and His assurance that I shall live at His place forever.

This is the truth and it leads to Godliness.

Now what is so difficult in that?

Any passage that contradicts this understanding has not been understood properly.

johnp

[Guest bobdamitch]

bouncing down to "elect".....you missed one....

Israel...the nation....and the people "elect" of God....

I will look at that you posted, Johnny...but you must recall we are looking at this in view of free moral agency and predestination....You did not mention Ch 3...

The point is that throughout, the choice is up to man to perform according to God's instructions...he has the choice.....but consequences if he does not WARN the sinning person.....in predestination it would not matter, since the outcome is predetermined.....but here the determination is in doubt......and....one more thing....one you will not find in line with calvinism.... verse (3):7 "But the house of Israel will not harken unto thee; for they will not harken unto me; for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted...." a statement of fact, not a predetermined predestined outcome....GOd is telling the prophet to do it, but recognizes that if they will not respond to HIM because of their nature, the Prophet may have a problem as well.