Free Will and Predestination

[tsth]

I would just like to say in regard to the Romans 7 reference. If you notice, Paul says "we will to do good"! It's just that the flesh alone cannot accomplish that, no matter how much our free-will is at work, and active. We CAN freely choose, so then what? That is where the need for the Savior comes in. Paul I believe clarifies man's free will and the struggle to "want to". But, no matter how much we want to "do good" it is with the Power of Jesus Christ that we are made able. It is not about that we do not know to "do good", we do know. Which then takes us back to the "Question" thread I posted earlier.

How about Job?

36:5 "Behold, God is mighty, but despises no one; He is mighty in strength of understanding. 6 He does not preserve the life of the wicked, But gives justice to the oppressed. 7 He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous; But they are on the throne with kings, For He has seated them forever, And they are exalted. 8 And if they are bound in fetters, Held in the cords of affliction, 9 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions-- That they have acted defiantly. 10 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. 11 If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. 12 But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge. 13 "But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them. 14 They die in youth, And their life ends among the perverted persons.

15 He delivers the poor in their affliction, And opens their ears in oppression. 16 "Indeed He would have brought you out of dire distress, Into a broad place where there is no restraint; And what is set on your table would be full of richness. 17 But you are filled with the judgment due the wicked; Judgment and justice take hold of you. 18 Because there is wrath, beware lest He take you away with one blow; For a large ransom would not help you avoid it. 19 Will your riches, Or all the mighty forces, Keep you from distress? 20 Do not desire the night, When people are cut off in their place. 21 Take heed, do not turn to iniquity, For you have chosen this rather than affliction. 22 "Behold, God is exalted by His power; Who teaches like Him? 23 Who has assigned Him His way, Or who has said, 'You have done wrong'?

Job 34:3 For the ear trieth words, as the mouth tasteth meat. 4 Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.

Job 34:25 Therefore he knows their works; He overthrows them in the night, And they are crushed. 26 He strikes them as wicked men In the open sight of others, 27 Because they turned back from Him, And *** would not consider any of His ways, 28 So that they caused the cry of the poor to come to Him; For He hears the cry of the afflicted. 29 When He gives quietness, who then can make trouble? And when He hides His face, who then can see Him, Whether it is against a nation or a man alone?-- 30 That the hypocrite should not reign, Lest the people be ensnared.

31 "For has anyone said to God, ' I have borne chastening; I will offend no more; 32 Teach me what I do not see; If I have done iniquity, I will do no more'? 33 Should it be according to thy mind? he will recompense it, whether thou refuse, or whether thou choose; and not I: therefore speak what thou knowest.

***note, it does not say "could not".

In His Love,

Suzanne

Edited September 6, 2004 by tsth

[Guest bobdamitch]

er....Suzanne...when you put the Word in front of them..it is pretty difficult for them to make a different response.

The Word is replete with choices....sowing and reaping.....

And yes...the Master calls...and yes the Master chooses...by the Master has never turned any one away....."God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him...

Seek the Lord while He can be found...."

:Yea...you would not think that I would get pitched for standing against drinking in the church as not being a good witness, either, would you?

[tsth]

:Yea...you would not think that I would get pitched for standing against drinking in the church as not being a good witness, either, would you?

Nope, you wouldn't think so.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[johnP]

With respect bobdamitch.

Maybe John you can get the calvinist mafia including some of your relatives to help you...provided you are the john i think you are....

We have been through this already and I remember telling you I am unaware of knowing you from Adam.

Maybe if you want you could tell me which forum you are talking about and I will know if it was me.

If you like you could show me a post for me to read to see if it is me. I would be glad to settle this problem you have concerning my relatives.

This is a distraction.

johnp

[Guest bobdamitch]

Be it far from me to distract you John....

You need to concentrate.

When you first greeted me as bobdamitch and asked as to my well being, I assumed you knew me from the other board. There were two Johns there...

I will say that your approach is better......apparently...but their points were essentially identical.

They did not respond to the direct questions...for instance in Ezekiel 3 and in Isiah 57 where God gives instructions where the hearer could make a choice, although I cant recall making the point to them, and as Suzanne pointed out as in Romans 7, they could not have given a cogent response to the contrary of what was pointed out....

[johnP]

The reply to Suzanne's post.

Romans 7.

7:1-6 Paul is talking to Christians. Christians are dead

to the law.

The penalty for infraction of the law cannot be

incurred by us because we are dead through the body of

Christ. A dead man is not under law. (Once saved always saved).

Verse 5 says that we were controlled, past tense, (No free

will there I see), by the sinful nature.

This nature becomes worse the moment it hears the law. This power of the law to make the sinner worse is removed as when we become Christians because we are dead to it.

The Christian that does not know this will feel like a powerless failure.

7:7 If the law increases sin then it is due to us that sin increases because the law is good. Paul would not have known what sin was;

7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the

commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire.

For apart from law, sin is dead. (He is not saved because

if he was the law would not have that effect. The power is

gone from it for us.)

7:9 Once he did not know a thing was sinful but when he

heard it he indulged himself. Rebellion. It's not until God pronounces His law that we get the opportunity to rebel and rebel we do as soon as we hear the law.

7:10 The thing he thought was a lifebelt was in fact a

millstone.

7:11

7:12 So then. (Or now that bits out of the way I will continue.)

7:13 The law is introduced so sin can be recognised. (But

not all heard did they?)

7:14-20 It is as a Christian that he finds this happening. Because he knows that the law is spiritual and he can't know that if he is dead in his sins because 1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

Paul is talking as a Christian and was referring back to a time when he was not.

7:21 Then he continues as a Christian to explain precisly what I have been saying. That we cannot think we can do good and be righteous in and of ourselves. That would be plain self-righteousness wouldn't it?

Is there anything we can do as Christians that we could put in front of God as clean? Of course not we are sinners still but imputed with the righteousness of Christ. That is our only righteousness. Our inner being is good but our sinful nature is still there and we are still sinners.

7:24-25 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! (Perseverance because he believe God.)

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Now as a Christian he has been rescued has he is, sinner. But the big difference now is that the law has no effect on him. It does not cause rebellion because he delights in it. But the sinful mind is hostile to it.

johnp

[johnP]

bobdamitch.

Be it far from me to distract you John....

You need to concentrate.

I take that as sarcasm but I meant a distraction to a very important issue not me.

When you first greeted me as bobdamitch and asked as to my well being, I assumed you knew me from the other board. There were two Johns there...

Yes but I have told you since that I don't know you as far as I know. Yet you have another snipe. I assumed you questioned my integrity.

I have behaved with utter sincerity, honesty, and candor : avoidance of deception, expediency, artificiality, or shallowness of any kind and I pray you would behave so.

They did not respond to the direct questions...

...where God gives instructions where the hearer could make a choice...

You accuse me of not answering questions.

I have responded. I said that God tells us to do things that it is impossible for us to do.

So what, that God gives us instructions. It does not mean that He has to give us the ability to carry it out? He is not obliged to us.

But;

With His people He wills in their wills to do His will and follow His direction and gives the strength needed to accomplish His will.

With the others He wills in their will to do His will and follow His direction and gives the strength needed to accomplish His will.

When His will is accomplished, and that is everytime, by the person that person receives a reward fitting to the act.

The saints action is rewarded with a reward fitting to the act and His sin disregarded on the basis of Christs sacrifice. It was an act of God not man.

The sinner is condemned already and will account for everything he does and everything he does is sin.

Both the sinner and the saint behave with the same corruption that their natures dictate. The whole of Romans 7 is dealing with our condition.

Where do I know you 'from somewhere before'?

johnp

[tsth]

Job 34:3 For the ear trieth words, as the mouth tasteth meat. 4 Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.

Job 34:25 Therefore he knows their works; He overthrows them in the night, And they are crushed. 26 He strikes them as wicked men In the open sight of others, 27 Because they turned back from Him, And *** would not consider any of His ways, 28 So that they caused the cry of the poor to come to Him; For He hears the cry of the afflicted. 29 When He gives quietness, who then can make trouble? And when He hides His face, who then can see Him, Whether it is against a nation or a man alone?-- 30 That the hypocrite should not reign, Lest the people be ensnared.

31 "For has anyone said to God, ' I have borne chastening; I will offend no more; 32 Teach me what I do not see; If I have done iniquity, I will do no more'? 33 Should it be according to thy mind? he will recompense it, whether thou refuse, or whether thou choose; and not I: therefore speak what thou knowest.

Gen. 3:22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

Man knows between good and evil. And so knowing that man would eat from this tree, is he not given freewill to choose of one or the other ultimately?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[His son]

OSAS is now, alway was, and always will be a doctrine that is made up by man, and like all false doctrine when one starts with an idea they can go through The Bible and find Scriptures that would seem to support that doctrine. This is exactly what those who support OSAS do. When all Scripture in The Bible that deals with the issue of our salvation are taken into account you will find that those Scriptures are referring to those whom God in His omniscience knew would exercise their freewill to choose serving Him to the extent of total submission of their will's to His will rather than serve their flesh. This is why you will always have a need for those who support this doctrine to quote other men, and their writtings. This is also why God who knew all this was going to happen tells us to meditiate in His Scriptures, and pray in The Spirit all the time. When one realy studies out Gods's Omniscience, Omnipresence, and Omnipotence in The Bible it becomes totaly clear that predestination is true for every person who has ever been born, and is based on God's pure justice which means all who die after the age of understanding will have the same opportunity to know The Truth, and make that freewill choice without being forced or coerced by anyone either way. There are Scriptures that make definite statements that one can be saved, and started well into the salvation pilgrimage and then turn away from God so much so that they can find no place of repentance. On the other hand there is not one Scripture that tells us that God will complete our salvation regardless of what we choose to do using our own freewill. One has to privately interpret Scriptures, and take them out of total Biblical context to do so. This is a tool satan uses to set up a false sense of security for people just like he did with Adam, and Eve in the garden.

[Guest bobdamitch]

wow....when did we add "once saved always saved" to this thread? As far as I know this thread is about free will and predestination.....

But you jump in here pretty hard.....I believe that God is able to keep that which I have committed (free will) unto Him against that day....also that fellow, I believe you even may recognize...the Apostle Paul....believed that and wrote about it....and he said...and I believe that he was inspired by the Holy Spirit....and when he was not..he told you that too....