Free Will and Predestination

[tsth]

Yet God does tell us we must make a choice between life and death and also tells us that He has decreed that we must not reach it!

No John, He's merely telling us that we do not have the ability to reach it now, and must go through the "power" of Jesus Christ. Remember God said we now have the knowledge of good and evil, which meant that the evil would have been able to enter His Perfect Kingdom, where there is NO sin. So, how to remedy that? The knowledge and choice for goodness must be given as well. That is Jesus Christ!

When we ask Jesus to save us from our sin, we are "acknowledging" our evil, and asking to be cleansed. We do not automatically get cleansed, because we have a head knowledge of Jesus? We asked to be saved, because of the LAW which brings us to the understanding of our sinfulness, and the need to be saved, and the only WAY/POWER to do so is Jesus. We have the ability and knowledge to know the good AND evil, God said so, but what do we do with that knowledge?

Life has been hidden from man. Free will cannot find it.

Life has not been hidden, it is just unattainable through the power of the "flesh". It is only attainable through Him that is able, if we believe and so choose. (Dear John, I DO HOPE that you will read the following thoroughly and not skim it. Please just let it soak in and rethink it for a little bit, before you respond. )

There is a very prominent purpose for the Law.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This is not to say that ALL men will choose the saving grace of Jesus Christ, but that it was purchased for ALL men.

A free gift is not in a person's possession, until a person has reached out and taken hold of it. I have seen many who will pass by a free gift, because they are afraid that the strings attached were a "bad" thing. :il: Not so with Jesus!!!

In His Love,

Suzanne

Edited September 8, 2004 by tsth

[tsth]

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

In His Love,

Suzanne

[johnP]

Hello Suzanne.

Yet God does tell us we must make a choice between life and death and also tells us that He has decreed that we must not reach it!

No John, He's merely telling us that we do not have the ability to reach it now...

Read it again please and explain to me that God does not say 'man must not'.

You are changing the scripture. From a 'must not be allowed' you get a 'can be able'.

Either we are able to reach out for life or we are not. You are saying we can.

We do reach out for life but it is God that moves us.

Good to see you back. It is good to see you contending for the faith. Php 1:27.

So, how to remedy that? The knowledge and choice for goodness must be given as well. That is Jesus Christ!

But you do believe He said 'must not' because here you say; '...and choice for goodness must be given as well...'.

You mean the ability to make the right choice? Why? Are you making God obliged to us?

We have the ability and knowledge to know the good AND evil, God said so, but what do we do with that knowledge?

Why have you put ability in that sentence? Do you mean we have the ability to know? Yes. Do we have knowledge of right and wrong? Yes. A knowledge of good and evil implies no ability. '...the ability and knowledge to know the good AND evil, God said so...'. I know of many places where He says we have not got the ability but nowhere have I found Him saying we have. That's your contradiction. You must provide passages where He does say we are able.

But even if He has given us the ability then He still locks us out because Paul strictly rules out will as a way of salvation doesn't He? It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Rom 9:16.

So, how to remedy that? The knowledge and choice for goodness must be given as well. That is Jesus Christ!

I'm sorry Suzanne but that is your remedy. Why must it be given to us? Where does it say Eden was reversed?

"The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

johnp

[tsth]

John,

I would encourage you to take to heart these passages.

Prov. 3:13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. 14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. 15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. 16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. 17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

Psalm 111:10:The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Prov. 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

Pr 2:2

So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;

Proverbs 3:18

She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

Proverbs 10:20 The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom.

Pr 11:30 - Show Context

The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

Pr 13:12 - Show Context

Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.

Pr 15:4 - Show Context

A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.

Re 2:7 - Show Context

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Re 22:14 - Show Context

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Dear John, I would greatly encourage you to read the Proverbs regarding Wisdom, for it is the essence of Jesus Christ and His Grace it is His Treasure.

Proverbs 16:16 How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!

Matthew 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. 45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: 46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Proverbs 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; 4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; 5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. 6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. 7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[johnP]

That's very good advice Suzanne thank you. I know wisdom very well.

Jesus tells us what is good and what is bad. He tells us to pick the good and not the bad. I know that but nevertheless we cannot do it. He has taken the ability away. He says that and you do not believe what He says to you.

Prov. 3:13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. 14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. 15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. 16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. 17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

Happy is the man that findeth wisdom To find: to come upon accidentally or by searching or effort. Which one? It can't be the second can it because Paul says it is not by effort. It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Rom 9:16. That includes the will. Desire.

Wisdom is Jesus and He is the tree of life. We are not allowed to take it ourselves He says so in Gen 3.

If we could Paul says that it is not your will that will save you anyway. Rom 9:16.

This is your contradiction you still have it one way or another. Because if you are right then there really is a contradiction in the bible.

We are the pearls of great price.

1 John 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world... and you can't born yourself. He says so in Gen 3.

I don't understand why you write this. 'Show Context'.

johnp

[tsth]

That's very good advice Suzanne thank you. I know wisdom very well.

Jesus tells us what is good and what is bad. He tells us to pick the good and not the bad. I know that but nevertheless we cannot do it. He has taken the ability away. He says that and you do not believe what He says to you.

Prov. 3:13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. 14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. 15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. 16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. 17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

Happy is the man that findeth wisdom To find: to come upon accidentally or by searching or effort. Which one? It can't be the second can it because Paul says it is not by effort.  It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Rom 9:16. That includes the will. Desire.

Wisdom is Jesus and He is the tree of life. We are not allowed to take it ourselves He says so in Gen 3.

If we could Paul says that it is not your will that will save you anyway. Rom 9:16.

This is your contradiction you still have it one way or another. Because if you are right then there really is a contradiction in the bible.

We are the pearls of great price.

1 John 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world... and you can't born yourself. He says so in Gen 3.

I don't understand why you write this. 'Show Context'.

johnp

I'm sorry John, I guess we'll have to end the discussion here, as I just receive the Scriptures differently than you do. The Spirit reveals them to me, as I have shared them with you, and that is all that I can do. I have shown you in passage after passage where the Lord calls upon us to "choose", however, I cannot "make" you believe that, as it is your "choice" to do so, or not to do so.

This is your contradiction you still have it one way or another. Because if you are right then there really is a contradiction in the bible.

John the Scriptures pose no contradiction for me. You are the one carrying that burden, so it is up to you to reconcile it, not me, as I have not stated that, only you have. Why would it be my contradiction, if it does not present one to me?

He says that and you do not believe what He says to you.

Oh, but I do believe what He says to me, that is why I posted the various Scriptures that I did, because I DO BELIEVE Him! That is what faith IS!

I don't understand why you write this. 'Show Context'.

That is just a carry over from a Bible site that I use to pull up Scriptures, and it gets carried over. Normally I will take that part off, but I guess I didn't on some places.

I have enjoyed our discussion John, and really would hope that you would go back and reread what I posted. At least take some time to consider.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[johnP]

Ok Suzanne see you around.

johnp

[His son]

Quote:

Why have you put ability in that sentence? Do you mean we have the ability to know? Yes. Do we have knowledge of right and wrong? Yes. A knowledge of good and evil implies no ability. '...the ability and knowledge to know the good AND evil, God said so...'. I know of many places where He says we have not got the ability but nowhere have I found Him saying we have. That's your contradiction. You must provide passages where He does say we are able.

But even if He has given us the ability then He still locks us out because Paul strictly rules out will as a way of salvation doesn't He? It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Rom 9:16.

John 14:12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

(KJV)

I Jn 2:5-6

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

(KJV)

Sounds like ability to me.

[johnP]

Hello His on.

This is why you will always have a need for those who support this doctrine to quote other men...

Where have I done that? Not that I mind but I give you the chance to straighten this comment up again.

...The Bible it becomes totaly clear that predestination is true for every person who has ever been born, and is based on God's pure justice which means all who die after the age of understanding will have the same opportunity to know The Truth, and make that freewill choice without being forced or coerced by anyone either way...

Look it up. Predestination is a funny word. It precludes not includes men. Your explanation is an invention. You can't make words mean what you want. Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...

This is a tool satan uses to set up a false sense of security for people just like he did with Adam, and Eve in the garden.

Satan uses assurance to lull us into a false sense of security does he? You mean God does not give us any assurance but leaves us to the mercy of our will? But Paul says that it is not our desires that save us, Rom 9:16.

Your argument is dead. If OSAS is wrong then you must continue to reach out for salvation and He says you are not allowed to reach it. Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

Sounds like inability to me.

This is your contradiction His son. You must deal with it. The verses you use do not deal with it.

johnp