The End of America

[BlindSeeker]

. . . The call to flee is born out of a lot of self-righteous hokum. When the tribulation hits, and it will, there will be a lot of people right here in the US in need of help and direction.

Nice to see you haven't lost your touch .

[Guest shiloh357]

. . . The call to flee is born out of a lot of self-righteous hokum. When the tribulation hits, and it will, there will be a lot of people right here in the US in need of help and direction.

Nice to see you haven't lost your touch .

Just telling it like it is. The Bible does not call us to flee. It calls us to stay and be a light for those in darkness. Fleeing is cowardice.

[BlindSeeker]

. . . The call to flee is born out of a lot of self-righteous hokum. When the tribulation hits, and it will, there will be a lot of people right here in the US in need of help and direction.

Nice to see you haven't lost your touch .

Just telling it like it is. The Bible does not call us to flee. It calls us to stay and be a light for those in darkness. Fleeing is cowardice.

Really isn't about "fleeing" or "cowardice" . . . its about the Lord's namesake and obedience.

Mr 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Re 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Even though God did tell His people to flee and deliver themselves in the Bible before . . .

Jer 51:6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.

Jer 51:45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD.

However, you can still keep doing what you do and keep judging others motives if you like.

[Guest shiloh357]

Really isn't about "fleeing" or "cowardice" . . . its about the Lord's namesake and obedience.

Yeah its interestring how context just flies out the window when it comes to this kind of low-rent theology. Neither applies to fleeing America.

In Mark they were sent to cities to preach and if the cities did not receive they were to move on. Jesus was asking them to flee Israel.

In the Revelation passage, it refers to not partaking of the world's system. It cannot be rightly applied to fleeing from America. Obedience is easier when you endeavor to apply Scripture to the issues it is intended to address rather than stringing verses together to make the Bible appear to say what you want it to say.

The goes for the verses in Jeremiah. God called His people out of Babylon to return to Israel at the end of the exile. That is an entirely different context than the silly notion that we should all flee the bad ol' United States.

In church history, there were people who fled out of the cities and away from the people and into the hills and they became hermits. They felt that they were doing God's will by living in caves away from the world and sought to out do each other in higher and higher degrees of piety. They did nothing for the Kingdom of God. They were polarized around their separatist attitudes and their overall condemnation of those believers who did not flee (while at the same time having to live off of the charity of the very believers they condemned as too worldly.

There is no call for the church to flee America, but rather to engage America and the universal emptiness of American culture that is without Christ. Running off to somewhere doesn't really advance the Kingdom. It might feel "holy" and "righteous" and all that, but it basically is counterproductive to the interests of the Kingdom of God.

[BlindSeeker]

Really isn't about "fleeing" or "cowardice" . . . its about the Lord's namesake and obedience.

Yeah its interestring how context just flies out the window when it comes to this kind of low-rent theology. Neither applies to fleeing America.

In Mark they were sent to cities to preach and if the cities did not receive they were to move on. Jesus was asking them to flee Israel.

In the Revelation passage, it refers to not partaking of the world's system. It cannot be rightly applied to fleeing from America. Obedience is easier when you endeavor to apply Scripture to the issues it is intended to address rather than stringing verses together to make the Bible appear to say what you want it to say.

The goes for the verses in Jeremiah. God called His people out of Babylon to return to Israel at the end of the exile. That is an entirely different context than the silly notion that we should all flee the bad ol' United States.

In church history, there were people who fled out of the cities and away from the people and into the hills and they became hermits. They felt that they were doing God's will by living in caves away from the world and sought to out do each other in higher and higher degrees of piety. They did nothing for the Kingdom of God. They were polarized around their separatist attitudes and their overall condemnation of those believers who did not flee (while at the same time having to live off of the charity of the very believers they condemned as too worldly.

There is no call for the church to flee America, but rather to engage America and the universal emptiness of American culture that is without Christ. Running off to somewhere doesn't really advance the Kingdom. It might feel "holy" and "righteous" and all that, but it basically is counterproductive to the interests of the Kingdom of God.

Oh . . . ok . . .

You know, you have a wonderful way of just making people want to open up and talk with you about things . . . .

There's always have so much of your attitude saturating you posts . . . that alone is more than sufficient to address spirit of what you say . . . sad.

I used to actually have an interest in your posts . . .

[Guest shiloh357]

Oh . . . ok . . .

You know, you have a wonderful way of just making people want to open up and talk with you about things . . . .

There's always have so much of your attitude saturating you posts . . . that alone is more than sufficient to address spirit of what you say . . . sad.

I used to actually have an interest in your posts .

I really don't care what you think or don't think. I did not post that for your benefit anyway, but so that others are not misled by the really bad theology and self-righteousness that is the source for these kinds of topics. America is not perfect, but it is the greatest country in the world and is still greatly blessed by God. Americans still have it pretty good where religious freedom is concerned; far better than anywhere else. Just about anywhere else a person would flee to would be worse and far more evil than anything we have got in the US.

[Fez]

Oh . . . ok . . .

You know, you have a wonderful way of just making people want to open up and talk with you about things . . . .

There's always have so much of your attitude saturating you posts . . . that alone is more than sufficient to address spirit of what you say . . . sad.

I used to actually have an interest in your posts .

I really don't care what you think or don't think. I did not post that for your benefit anyway, but so that others are not misled by the really bad theology and self-righteousness that is the source for these kinds of topics. America is not perfect, but it is the greatest country in the world and is still greatly blessed by God. Americans still have it pretty good where religious freedom is concerned; far better than anywhere else. Just about anywhere else a person would flee to would be worse and far more evil than anything we have got in the US.

Just about anywhere else a person would flee to would be worse and far more evil than anything we have got in the US.

Oh, I do hope that is a generalisation....

[BlindSeeker]

Oh . . . ok . . .

You know, you have a wonderful way of just making people want to open up and talk with you about things . . . .

There's always have so much of your attitude saturating you posts . . . that alone is more than sufficient to address spirit of what you say . . . sad.

I used to actually have an interest in your posts .

I really don't care what you think or don't think. I did not post that for your benefit anyway, but so that others are not misled by the really bad theology and self-righteousness that is the source for these kinds of topics. America is not perfect, but it is the greatest country in the world and is still greatly blessed by God. Americans still have it pretty good where religious freedom is concerned; far better than anywhere else. Just about anywhere else a person would flee to would be worse and far more evil than anything we have got in the US.

Oh . . . ok . . . I know you don't care what I (or anyone for that matters) think. I was just saying I used respect and care about what you thought. Now you just remind me of on the sons of Immer.

.

[traveller]

The last few posts are getting a bit personal. Please adhere to the Terms of Service and address the issue and not the person. I know you can do this - I've witnessed the grace in both of you.

I know that I'm not the only one that is very interested in this subject. I'd like to see non emotional interpretations from both sides. I imagine all the other lurkers would too. So, help us to gain understanding here by doing what you do best. Both of you.

Peace family.

[BlindSeeker]

Really isn't about "fleeing" or "cowardice" . . . its about the Lord's namesake and obedience.

Yeah its interestring how context just flies out the window when it comes to this kind of low-rent theology. Neither applies to fleeing America.

Context? I was addressing your previous statement –

The Bible does not call us to flee. It calls us to stay and be a light for those in darkness. Fleeing is cowardice.

I was simply showing that God has commanded His people at times to flee / leave and even sometimes to surrender their enemies since they were being used by God to chastise them for their sins.

Jer 21:8 And unto this people thou shalt say, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death.

9 He that abideth in this city shall die by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence: but he that goeth out, and falleth to the Chaldeans that besiege you, he shall live, and his life shall be unto him for a prey.

10 For I have set my face against this city for evil, and not for good, saith the LORD: it shall be given into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall burn it with fire.

In Mark they were sent to cities to preach and if the cities did not receive they were to move on. Jesus was asking them to flee Israel.

Very good Shiloh, but the righteous were being told to leave because His judgments would go in after them and be poured out upon the wicked unbelievers.

In the Revelation passage, it refers to not partaking of the world's system. It cannot be rightly applied to fleeing from America.

So, the whole of Revelations 13-19 is simply addressing “the world’s system?” Why then is the angel telling John things that point specifically to another empire? Why mention the progression of the seven mountains (empires) and their kings who had specific correlation to the nation of Israel?

Obedience is easier when you endeavor to apply Scripture to the issues it is intended to address rather than stringing verses together to make the Bible appear to say what you want it to say’

The goes for the verses in Jeremiah. God called His people out of Babylon to return to Israel at the end of the exile. That is an entirely different context than the silly notion that we should all flee the bad ol' United States.

All the verses I submitted were simply to show you that your above comment about “The Bible does not call us to flee,” is inaccurate. It has called the righteous to flee in specific situations where God’s word is rejected.

If God was faithful to judge His own people, and has historically proved He will also judge the rest, what makes you think America is above God’s judgment? God is no more a respecter of nations than He is a respecter of persons. Yet it is amazing how many think God will wink at the atrocities of this country which has slaughter and shed the innocent blood of over fifty million unborn on the altar of self-worship and service and convenience.

Not to mention that God has been chastising America with the frequency and severity of birth pangs since our government has pushed for a “New World Order” and aggressively sought to establish a Palestinian State by taking and dividing up the covenant land given to Israel. You, the great defender of Israel should be seeing this clearer than must.

Now we have a President who has made it official, we do not automatically stand with Israel anymore . . . isn’t clear that they that are with are against, or they that don’t help to gather are working to scatter? Or am I guilty again of “stringing verses together to make the Bible appear to say what you want it to say,” because I have recognize the righteous precept of God working in His word and how it extends itself to other applications in life?

In church history, there were people who fled out of the cities and away from the people and into the hills and they became hermits. They felt that they were doing God's will by living in caves away from the world and sought to out do each other in higher and higher degrees of piety. They did nothing for the Kingdom of God. They were polarized around their separatist attitudes and their overall condemnation of those believers who did not flee (while at the same time having to live off of the charity of the very believers they condemned as too worldly.)

Separatist attitudes are grossly prevalent in those carnal believers who choose to identify themselves with the various denominations continue to boast themselves to enlightenment and divine approval and endorsement. There are no Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Protestants or Catholics who are going to get into heave . . . only the true followers of Christ, His disciples . . . just Christians will make it.

There is no call for the church to flee America, but rather to engage America and the universal emptiness of American culture that is without Christ. Running off to somewhere doesn't really advance the Kingdom. It might feel "holy” and "righteous" and all that, but it basically is counterproductive to the interests of the Kingdom of God.

I will let time and the Spirit of God judge these words of yours. It is clear and evident that we are not in agreement on this matter.