wives submitting??

[johnP]

Yes tilly, I used to think like that.

Teach his highness what love really is.

A coming together as one in submission to God. Love one another as I loved you. John 13:34.

Serve one another.

You learn a lot about God's love for us when you practise love but onesided love is a pain.

Love overcomes, it makes living forever worthwhile.

johnp

[Kabowd]

As Super Jew pointed out, this was aimed at women who would distract people by talking during prayer. I guess that's why we don't hear much about the no-women-talking rule these days? But to say that its null because of its context is interpretation, which is what I am stressing - subordination was context of the time, so you have to take that (like many other things) into consideration when reading the Holy Bible. It doesn't make it any less holy, but it does show you that interpretation and context is sometimes useful and necessary.

You're running into a few problems here. First, as Super Jew also stated (which you conveniently ignored), the verses you reference (I Cor. 14 and 1 Tim. 2) are outlining the way order should be set up within the church, specifically that women are not to have authority over men (within the church). Yes, context is highly important ...but, you can't just say "Oh well, that was their culture, we don't do things that way now". Scripture is all useful. Instead of taking verses here and there and coming to a conclusion, you have to see the bigger picture..which you seem to be missing.

"A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death."

- Leviticus 21:9

You've got to be kidding me. Do you realize that the book of Leviticus was given to Moses so that God could give the Priests clear instructions regarding holiness and sacrifice? This it the Old Testament...the Old Covenant...prior to Christ's sacrifice under grace. This doesn't mean it isn't useful. For one thing, it serves as a reminder of the effort it would take (were it not for grace) to please God. It also shows God's intense desire for fellowship with His people. However, we cannot take these laws and apply them to our lives today. Not because of cultural differences, but because of covenantal differences. There is no longer need for priests and sacrifices. (see Hebrews 9 & 10 if you're confused).

georgesbluegirl is I believe correct in her assertion of equality between men and women and it is scriptural.

I, too, would agree that men and women are both equal in value. They are not equal in authority. The roles are different, it isn't about superiority/inferiority. It's about order and God's design.

Leadership is not sex dependant as scripture demonstrates time and again.

Clairification on this statement please? Are you implying that God is sexist?

The body of Christ has one head, Eph 1:10.

And the husband is the head of the wife, Ephesians 5:23 You can't choose to keep Ephesians 1:10 and then exclude 5:23.

If the verses in Timothy are meant to be that women were not allowed to teach then it contradicts scripture and we don

[Kabowd]

Submission is a Holy word. It does not mean to obey.

I addressed this in the other thread, but I think I should reply here too.

The word "submit" in Greek is "hupotasso". It means to subordinate, and yes...to obey. When it's used in the Bible, it refers to a position that's not voluntary. Meaning that a person in a position to submit is technically (because of their position) "in subjection" or "subdued" already. It's not optional.

I know it doesn't sound fun (at all), but techinically...we can't disregard obedience to authority without disregarding obedience to Christ. We are called to submit to God. To say it does not mean obedience is wishful thinking.

[Shelby]

The word in that text originally was not submit if I remember right. All things are voluntary. Free will.

On all other points I pretty much agree with you.

[georgesbluegirl]

I apologize if I brought my preconceived notions too much into this thread - but I do have them, and I still do not agree with the absolute submission of the wife.

The Shakespeare reference was just a thought, and whether or not it was actually William Shakespeare who wrote the plays, they are consistently amazing. I would never hold him above the Bible, obviously.

And I AM Catholic...the first reference was meant to be sarcastic, hence the smiley face. I was merely pointing out that, while I do not doubt that the Bible is the Word of God, as a Catholic, I believe that it must be examined in context regarding social commands.

It is men that want women to be put in their place and women like it like that. Gen 3:16 ...Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

This was a prophecy not a command

Yeah, it's taken women forever to assert their equality, unfortunately.

The "elbow mass" is the reading that comes up about once a year in the Catholic liturgical cycle that is the whole reading about family honoring God that includes the "wives, be submissive to your husband" part. I can't remember the exact citation but ServingHim posted it earlier. It's the "elbow mass" because husbands elbow their wives, who tend to elbow their husbands back and roll their eyes. Most priests don't dwell on it much, although some good-humored ones address it, usually starting with a joke of some kind...oh I should explain, if you don't know, the readings we do at Mass (Catholic) go in a cycle, there's a set order to which ones are read over time. Similarly, we go from Gospel to Gospel...I think we're in Mark right now, but I could be wrong, my memory is gone...

[Kabowd]

The word in that text originally was not submit if I remember right.  All things are voluntary.  Free will. 

On all other points I pretty much agree with you.

Ephesians 5:22

"Wives, submit [hupotasso] to your husbands as to the Lord."

I Peter 2:13

"Submit [hupotasso] yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men..."

Colossians 3:18

"Wives submit [hupotasso] to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord."

James 4:7

"Submit [hupotasso] yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

As you can see here, the orignial word for each of these verses is the same "hupotasso"...which means to be obedient. As I stated earlier, you can't say that we aren't called to submit to our husbands without saying we aren't called to submit to God also.

[georgesbluegirl]

Snaps for free will!

[Kabowd]

Snaps for free will!

Yes, we're free to choose whether we'll obey or disobey.

[georgesbluegirl]

As I stated earlier, you can't say that we aren't called to submit to our husbands without saying we aren't called to submit to God also.

We disagree on this point. I do submit to God, I try to be as a child as Jesus commanded. But I do not agree that a woman must always submit to her husband, and I do not think that I must do this to submit to God.

[Honey]

I, as the husband, Listen to my wife, she compliments me, and I her.

as far as having the final say, that is the Lords doings. we both turn to the Lord for any and all decission making.....

God wants to be a part of every thing in our lives, not just the big stuff, the stuff we can not handle, but even the little things, such as bill paying...

there are times i forget to do something, my wife helps keep me on track, there are times she may forget something, and I am there to assist her. Together, we are a team. we play as a team. as far as the deciding vote, I have one vote, she has one vote, and together, our vote does not out weigh the vote of God....

if there is a reason that we will not be able to come to an agreement on a matter, we will back off, take it into the prayer chamber and discuss it later, with no arguement.......

there are times that I have a concern that I wont share at a peticular time, but will at a later time, when I can present it with out too much emotion..... ( or try to ).... and there are times that she will have a concern and will wait to share it with me with the same attitude.... so that we are not accussing each other or cutting each other down..... we are here to build each other up, and to support each other.....

my wife, being submissive to me, is not placing her benieth me, and me loving her is not placing me above her...... as I love her, I will submit myself to her, and no other.... as I love the Lord I will submit myself to Him, as no other......

as I am submissive to the Lord, I also am loving my wife...... and as my wife submits to me, she is showing her love for me.... not saying she is my servant or slave or she is to do every thing I say....

there are some that believe that the marriage license is a title or deed of ownership for them, to control their wifes as they choose.... this is totally wrong... and totally not right.......

the wife is the help mate...... mate being an equal.... such as a ship mate, or a room mate........ a ship mate is not one that is a slave to the other, but one that will ensure the ship sails smoothly as possible..... a room mate is one that is not a servant, to clean the entire house and cook and slave away while the other sits and pigs out and makes a pig sty of the house..... the room mate is equally responsible for the house....

the husband is responsible for certain areas of the house hold.... the wife is also responsible for certain areas of the house hold..... where the husband comes up short, the wife will fill in... and vise verse....

if the husband will not lead the house, spiritually, then the wife should pick up where he leaves off.... and if the wife chooses not to help out withthe spiritual growth of the house, the husband should be able to carry on ......

a house divided will fall, and that includes both the husband and the wife... if one is not helping they are hindering.... they both have to work together.... not separately....

submission is not slavery.... not at all....

mike

mike this post is great! I am married and we both have alot to learn. I do try to be submissive but i am also out spoken and run away with my mouth too much which is a problem i am praying about.