OneLight Posted October 18, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2010 I have been quietly reading this thread and I must say that this is the best thread of this topic that I have seen ... honest discussion is being made. In light of how well everyone is treating each other, I would like to ask those who do not believe that tongues are for today, how they see the following verses. Romans 8:26-27 (New King James Version) 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Upon review of many other versions of the bible, the word "groan" is used in one form or another, so this is not what I would like to address. What I am asking is if you believe that the Holy Spirit no longer intercedes for us in this manner? Do you see this as something different then tongues? as to the tongues question- please look above with my discussion to my Brother Botz.... but as to the verse if I may- We all know we live in light spiritually but here the practice of sins still cast shadows upon the truth of God... this corruption runs so much in permeation of creation Gal 5:7-10 7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. NKJV our Father intends to burn it completely up in His Holy Love of Righteousness ( all of it - the heavens for satan was there, the earth for we see his work everyday!) Paul speaks of it as in a mirror dimly... I believe the same is occurring in His Word as to understanding varied and divided in the many who know Him to be their Lord. Doctrine is not bad nor should it be divisive yet... I believe that communication is quite lacking here as to Christ's talk with Nicodemus John 3:12-13 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? NKJV so pointedly I believe that is what this Scripture above is agreeing with and is saying so in the defined form of groaning (it is intense request purely given in righteous format...) but also The Spirit is still aiding our poor abilities to see, speak and understand... Love Steven I'm sorry Steven, but you never answered my question. You have shown how you feel about the gift, but failed to answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted October 18, 2010 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,239 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,493 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted October 18, 2010 I have been quietly reading this thread and I must say that this is the best thread of this topic that I have seen ... honest discussion is being made. In light of how well everyone is treating each other, I would like to ask those who do not believe that tongues are for today, how they see the following verses. Romans 8:26-27 (New King James Version) 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Upon review of many other versions of the bible, the word "groan" is used in one form or another, so this is not what I would like to address. What I am asking is if you believe that the Holy Spirit no longer intercedes for us in this manner? Do you see this as something different then tongues? as to the tongues question- please look above with my discussion to my Brother Botz.... but as to the verse if I may- We all know we live in light spiritually but here the practice of sins still cast shadows upon the truth of God... this corruption runs so much in permeation of creation Gal 5:7-10 7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. NKJV our Father intends to burn it completely up in His Holy Love of Righteousness ( all of it - the heavens for satan was there, the earth for we see his work everyday!) Paul speaks of it as in a mirror dimly... I believe the same is occurring in His Word as to understanding varied and divided in the many who know Him to be their Lord. Doctrine is not bad nor should it be divisive yet... I believe that communication is quite lacking here as to Christ's talk with Nicodemus John 3:12-13 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? NKJV so pointedly I believe that is what this Scripture above is agreeing with and is saying so in the defined form of groaning (it is intense request purely given in righteous format...) but also The Spirit is still aiding our poor abilities to see, speak and understand... Love Steven I'm sorry Steven, but you never answered my question. You have shown how you feel about the gift, but failed to answer. This is the post to Botz and I believe your answer: Botz our mind is agreed in all you have said. So I will try to restate what I said... An issue has occurred in evangelical "tongues" I have not been gifted with its use so I examine its function within the body! 1 Cor 12:28-29 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. NKJV it seems by the grammatical construct tongues are last in the list as the mind of Paul with the anointing writes... 1 Cor 14:5 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. NKJV considerations of the gifts is verified to importance and agrees with the first in linage of giftings... *** so with this understanding as I look out upon the body of believers - the subject of tongues is brought to the foremost in importance and this does not agree with Scripture*** my question is why? I am not overly concerned for the great commission both groups are in language schools for the enabling of the obediences... This tells me the tongues are not the Acts 2 applied tongues and that leaves (interpreted and personal worship). Because I believe in the closed cannon of Scripture the interpreted aspect can be only for teaching the Scripture that is in place and the personal it should remain just as that! A great deal of what I am witnessing today as to tongues is violating what I understand the Biblical boundaries I have spoken of here. A family member begins to speak of the glories of Christ and I will join with them in heart and understanding; the same done in tongues and I find myself merely setting in respect of them unengaged in understanding and observing the physical happenstance... if they are receiving encouragement I will in respect thank God in my heart for that but I could not be specific to The Father as to what for the unity in praise is taken out... Love Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 18, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2010 I have been quietly reading this thread and I must say that this is the best thread of this topic that I have seen ... honest discussion is being made. In light of how well everyone is treating each other, I would like to ask those who do not believe that tongues are for today, how they see the following verses. Romans 8:26-27 (New King James Version) 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Upon review of many other versions of the bible, the word "groan" is used in one form or another, so this is not what I would like to address. What I am asking is if you believe that the Holy Spirit no longer intercedes for us in this manner? Do you see this as something different then tongues? This is the post to Botz and I believe your answer: ... Love Steven Your answer to Brother Botz is an argument about how tongues is being used in church and where it fits in ministry. My question is about the Holy Spirit praying for us, in intercession, when we don't know what to pray for. To me, this prayer is done in private, not in public, as in Matthew 6:6 'But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.' I placed in bold and underlined my questions. I realize this is a switch in everyone's train of thought from how this thread was headed, so I take responsibility for not being more clear in my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua-777 Posted October 18, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Share Posted October 18, 2010 considerations of the gifts is verified to importance and agrees with the first in linage of giftings... *** so with this understanding as I look out upon the body of believers - the subject of tongues is brought to the foremost in importance and this does not agree with Scripture*** my question is why? Reasons why tongues is the least, and why it is the foremost importance in discussions. Tongues is the least important gift. Tongues edifies the individual believer, while all other gifts edify others, Remember love is the most important? All other gifts operate out of love for the edification of the body, how ever tongues edifies the believer and is private between him and God unless there is an interpreter. Why is the subject of tongues usually end up being the foremost in importance? Because if someone cannot believe the Holy Spirit will give anyone the least of the gifts, how can they desire the greatest gifts? NOw Paul makes it clear that all gifts are used for edification, and the Kingdom of God comes in power! Now He also says in 1 cor 14:1 pursue love and be zealous for Spiritual gifts. Now if someone cannot accept that tongues exist, they cannot accept that any of the gifts exist. If You deny the least of the gifts how can you even begin to touch the greatest? Now if every believer was equipped and was zealous for the things of the Spirit, That would have a lot more impact on the body, and help it grow in the power of the Spirit! But if someone can't accept the least of the gifts, they will never accept the greater gifts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted October 18, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted October 18, 2010 I was thinking the same thing, Josh, but I wasn't formulating how to word this. Glad you got it! Along those lines, it's one thing for a person who has sought the Lord for the gift of prophecy and/or has and uses the gift of prophecy to talk about tongues being the lesser gift and to use the Scripture stating such and how it is better to seek the gift of prophecy. It is quite another when someone who does not and has not asked for/has and uses the gift of prophecy to use this passage in Scripture to speak against the use of tongues. That to me does not make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua-777 Posted October 18, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Share Posted October 18, 2010 I was thinking the same thing, Josh, but I wasn't formulating how to word this. Glad you got it! Along those lines, it's one thing for a person who has sought the Lord for the gift of prophecy and/or has and uses the gift of prophecy to talk about tongues being the lesser gift and to use the Scripture stating such and how it is better to seek the gift of prophecy. It is quite another when someone who does not and has not asked for/has and uses the gift of prophecy to use this passage in Scripture to speak against the use of tongues. That to me does not make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 18, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2010 My reasoning why tongues is mostly discussed is because it can be the most abused gift. If we look at the gifts, tongues is the only gift that can not be proven right or wrong. Let's look at what the gifts are from 1 Cor 12. word of wisdomword of knowledgefaithhealingsmiraclesprophecydiscerning of spiritsdifferent kinds of tonguesinterpretation of tongues. Out of all these gifts, the one that could do the most damage is tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Since nobody can out-rightly point to someone who is using tongues and accuse them of abusing the gift, it is abused more then any other. When someone gives an interpretation, who can say it is wrong until it does not come to pass, a lot like prophecy. Remember, it is not the body who falsifies the gifts, but Satan, trying his best to cause discord within the body. We all have the flesh to deal with and this is where he attacks. How our pride and self-righteousness can play a big part if we are not careful. I believe in all the gifts, though I have not seen them all. I also believe that any gift can be falsified. We need to accept His word as truth while understanding that Satan is out to mock God and cause division where unity should be. The gifts are real and active, but doubt rises when one personally sees someone falsifies the gifts. Those who disagree are looking at the one who is falsifying the gift and NOT at He who gives them. All throughout scripture we can find false prophets, false teachers and false preachers. We can see many times where people have pretended to be of God and were found to be false. Why should we be so shocked to see the same today when these days are far more wicked then the days in the past? If history records false miracles, we will find them today also. The same goes with speaking in tongues and their interpretations. Yes, the two gifts surrounding tongues is the least of the gifts, but they are in the forefront. If Satan can get people to believe they no longer exist, he has won half the battle. Be Blessed and learn to "trust in the Lord with all your heart and not lean onto your own understanding". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted October 18, 2010 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2010 My question where is the discontinuation of any gifts biblical? first you have to be able to find tongues being prophetic in the Old Testament. When you find it then you'll see the discontinuation of it becasue it is in the same chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted October 18, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted October 18, 2010 Good point, One Light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted October 19, 2010 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,239 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,493 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted October 19, 2010 Upon review of many other versions of the bible, the word "groan" is used in one form or another, so this is not what I would like to address. What I am asking is if you believe that the Holy Spirit no longer intercedes for us in this manner? Do you see this as something different then tongues? Onelight I am sorry for being such a poor communicator! I do not mean to be so- I just don't think or speak like most people! Very possibly retarded in the effort of communication... You know when your own Mother says you are the most different type of person that she have ever met... personally you know your up against it with the rest of the peoples! Like another said here that I use Scripture to support my topics as though they were misconstrued or manipulated for my own purpose... but I carefully understand their place in the Fathers Word contextually and then receive in my heart established truths that I can relate to presently and that is how I live within Scripture and Scripture lives within me.... relationally it develops the Spiritual essence of God's being for I understand He is before all this (creation) and is not bound by it. Has in fact incorporated His Word with the created fibers so that truth is seen in its focused design actually woven into every portion so that chance is completely, in the bounds of sanity, ruled out ... surely we are without excuse if we do not know Him! This is the answer then I gave to this question above- I reason precept upon precept I am a foundational thinker line upon line ... This is the precepts I see as to what the Spirit is doing and the reason for the doing in the verse you have spoken of: ---We all know we live in light spiritually but here the practice of sins still cast shadows upon the truth of God... this corruption runs so much in permeation of creation Gal 5:7-10 7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. NKJV Precept 1- we are so surrounded by sin (our flesh and the world) the need of COMPLETE renewing of the mind is often overlooked and we accept wrong concepts and presuppositions so we do not see as we should ... The Holy Spirit then needs to intercede as the verse says. our Father intends to burn it completely up in His Holy Love of Righteousness ( all of it - the heavens for satan was there, the earth for we see his work everyday!) Paul speaks of it as in a mirror dimly... Precept 2- most of Christianity today does not reckon in their minds the importance of eternal things that which God intends to keep eternally- verses- that set aside for burning up. This as well clouds the minds and understanding so that we do not see as we ought. For if He sees the things as no worth set aside to be destroyed and we spend all our energies gathering for our enjoyment or security... where are we in our minds with His mind? How shall we ask properly if we think differently? I believe the same is occurring in His Word as to understanding varied and divided in the many who know Him to be their Lord. Doctrine is not bad nor should it be divisive yet... I believe we see this in the communication here as to Christ's talk with Nicodemus John 3:12-13 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? NKJV Precept 3 we try to bring with the understanding of His Word things that do not figure into eternity. So that by holding on to them and demanding the answers with their acceptance already within us. We actually prevent the concepts and words to be brought into our understanding so that we might pray as we ought in the power of The Holy Spirit... This is what I believe causes the groanings of Our Lords Spirit! Seen here in this way James 4:1-5 4 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"? NKJV It makes me groan to consider the Holy Spirit of God within and the truth of the above! The greatest guest I shall ever know within my most personal rooms of being with groaning to The Father and The Son for I cannot ask for myself, do to the error that I myself do not see within me... My conclusion to these precepts- so pointedly I believe that is what this Scripture above is agreeing with and is saying so in the defined form of groaning (it is intense request purely given in righteous format...) but also The Spirit is still aiding our poor abilities to see, speak and understand... Love Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts