What is the Church?

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Angels4u,

Do you believe we are going through the GREAT TRIBULATION already?

No, and I did not say that. Jesus was referring to ALL tribulation in this world, including the "Great Tribulation".

You ask about

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

5083 tereo {tay-reh'-o}

from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to 2334); TDNT - 8:140,1174; v

AV - keep 57, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1, hold fast 1; 75

1) to attend to carefully, take care of

   1a) to guard

   1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is

   1c) to observe

   1d) to reserve: to undergo something

1537 ek {ek} or ex {ex}

a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative;; prep

AV - of 367, from 181, out of 162, by 55, on 34, with 25, misc 97; 921

1) out of, from, by, away from

If you examine these two words carefully, you will see the idea formed which is the same idea expressed in a different picture when the Hebrews were kept from the horrors that struck the Egyptians.

You would do yourself well if you would study the DIFFERENCE between "tribulation" and "wrath". There are many examples given in the scriptures of both.

For 3 1/2 years the Beast will make war with the "saints":

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Where did these saints come from?

Why have millions, perhaps billions of saints have had to go through "tribulation & martyrdom", and yet the saints at the end "Do not have to suffer tribulation?" That sure is whacky thinking and completely unsupported by the scriptures.

Do you know how gold is purified? It is put in the furnace and all the dross comes to the surface and is removed. There is no difference between this process and what Christians have to go through, now and in the future.

You say you are amenable to the truth. According to the pre-trib view, particularly YOUR pre-trib view, the Holy Spirit is taken off planet earth. If so, how can anyone be saved during the tribulation period? NO ONE can be saved without the assistance of the Holy Spirit bringing light into their lives.

Also, pre-trib says that nothing need be further done before the resurrection/rapture occurs. How can this be in lieu of these verses:

2 Thess 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Here are at least TWO events that MUST occur before we are gathered to the Lord. The pre-trib view places the man of sin and the falling away at mid-trib, yet still declare that they will not be around to see it, because they will be gone 3 1/2 years prior. Doesn't even "common sense", tell you that the pre-trib view is in error?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[wordsower]

Dad,

Looks like your Hebrew word search came up out of, from, by, away from, how in the world is that still in, going through, protected while in???  Out of means OUT OF as in I'm outta here!! I did a Hebrew word search on the 'caught up' in 1 Thess 4:17 and it means to be seized by force, snatched, taken out of dangers way, hmmmm

Who says we think the antichrist and falling away is coming mid-trib?  The antichrist comes at the beginning of the trib, to bring a false peace treaty, people will be deceived by him, he will look like a great guy, when he breaks the treaty and sets himself up as God is when God is gonna throw some wrath down on him.    At least that's what I understand.

[angels4u]

Hi Wordsower,

That's how I see it too. :thumb:

Angels

[Guest Tigershark]

Hi Tigershark,

I am not close minded at all, you prove to me from the Bible Pre trib is not biblicial and I believe you.

And yes, I ment the nation Israel in Matt.24

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Wordsower,

re:

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The critical word here is KEEP. It has no connection to the Gr. word Harpazo. The Hebrews were KEPT during the tribulation of the Egyptians, they were NOT caught up out of it.

Your Servant in Christ,

Dad Ernie

[eric]

grettings all. I suppose I can join in,but first a scripture

Rev.20:4b. and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,neither his image,neither had rsceived his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So these ones must have gone through the tribulation, because that is the time when the "beast" is in operation.

Question; Why would the lord take some christians, or saints if you like,before the trib and leave others to have their heads whacked off during the trib? There is no difference between a jewish believer and a gentile believer. Both are called saints

and IMO will all be taken after the tribulation as Jesus said

in Matt.24:-31.

[glintofsteel]

I would like to return to the theme of 'What is the Church'. As pointed out, it is the living organism of Christ's body himself. But I want to give my (scriptural) veiwpoint, contrasting the mode and function of what we deem the Church to be in mainstream Christianity today.

The church at Ephesus or Philippi in Pauls day, was a band of believers who met in homes primarily. It was unstructured with the 'orderly' pews facing one man behind a pulpit. This model alone is keeping the Church from being the Church. Church is not a sermon, a teaching or exhortation or tongues. It is the body OF CHRIST. Not in mental assent, but in the spiritual realm..literally. These teachings, exhortations etc. arise as the govenor of the Body, wills. Namely, the Holy Spirit.

To back-track, lets start with the first words the Christ uttered in begining his ministry. He began preaching by saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand'. He would later say, 'The kingdom of God comes not to be observed, neither shall they say, lo here, or lo there, but THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU'. And, 'Seek you first the kingdom of God'... I personnally do not see a division between what the kingdom of God is, and the body of Christ. The word repent carries the connotation of, turn around, change your thinking, some others perhaps. But in light of the above mentioned verses, it means for me..turn within..where his kingdom is to be found. In John chapter 3 we find Jesus distinguishing, 'that which is born of the spirit is spirit, that which is born of the flesh is flesh'. Soon followed by the divine utterance of..'The wind blows as it wishes, you cannot tell where it comes from, or where it is going...but YOU HEAR THE SOUND thereof, so is everyone born of the spirit. How many gatherings of believers listen for the sound? For the leading of his spirit? The Holy Spirit desires to move amongst his bodily members, is He given permission in your Church?

When looking back to discern the birth of flesh from spirit, what do we see? Under the persecution of the Roman Empire, these christian are functioning under an unction that is 'turning the world upside down' as spoken of in the book of acts. The more the persecution, the more vigilant the spread of Christ. It is now out of control. So what does the Empire decide to do? They make Christianity their national religion. (If you can't beat em, join em) So in comes the hearlding of the Roman Catholic papacy. Christainity has just crossed over from being a vital working power under the leadership of the Holy Spirit (as a living ogranism) to a set format of many pews and a pope. A man made (flesh) organization. Can anyone say ichabod? The spirit of God has just left the building. Man is in charge now.

Well whoopty do, along comes Martin Luther and the nailing of his thesis and the reformation kicked-in. (I understand this was a big deal  back in those days, but most of us can read nowadays..can we protrude eye-sockets and insert brain cells now?) What Luther brought to the table, was change to understand certain scripture. That the just shall live by faith, and you didn't need to confess your sins to a 'church father' and such. But he took the structure with him. No change there..even to this present day. Folks, I hate to break it to you, but there is only one shepherd and one sheep-fold and I can garauntee you, your pastor is not the shepherd.

What I am trying to break the tradition of men concerning 'Church' because our emphasis on 'the one on many' is taking away from 'the many on one'. And that One, in inward engagement (fellowship) as John put it in his first epistle, 'Come fellowship with us, for truly our fellowship (divine exchange) is with the father and his son Jesus Christ'. All our attention focus on one mans taken in outwardness, is restricting the in-flow of the promptings of the Holy Spirit, from welling up within. From the kingdom God. Isaiah put it this way, 'My ways are not your ways, neither are my thoughts your thoughts, for as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher then yours, says the Lord'. In Hebs. 3 I think, we read, ' They do always err in heart and have not known my ways'. Consider for a moment, the heavens (starry skies) are millions of light years above us..do we think we know his ways? They are revealed to us by his spirit, but how skillful do we walk inwardly behold him by faith? As Paul said, 'that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith'. The ways of God work from the inside out, not the outside in. This finds validity only among the unsaved. The living organism of Jesus Christ, finds validity by way of minding the fact that Christ has come an taken up inward residence within us. When the world about us is closed off and we come to a profound realization of the Christ of glory within, can we say we are connecting with his body. The rest is silly fluff of our own making. An outward form that is denying the power. 'The kingdom of God, is not in word, but in power' Paul said.