Unleavened bread

[Guest astralis]

Racer,

[Guest racer]

astralis,

Good afternoon!

[munari]

Also, do you think the word Trinity rolled off the tongues of the first Apostles? It took a few councils to finally decide what exactly it meant to say that Christ was both human and divine. The questions are, is he half and half, is he a mix, was his body real or was it just an illusion, was He God from birth or only after his baptism, and the list goes on. These are ALL extra-biblical from your definition. None of these are expressly discussed in scripture, but scripture was used in order to come to a concensus on these questions. The councils came to these conclusions. From these conclusions, articles of faith were developed and passed among the faithful to ensure that everyone was at least being taught the same thing. From these, other biblically sound doctrines developed. The same process I just described above can be followed for EVERY Catholic doctrine on the books, including the Catechism. To me, the Catechism is a question/answer book. You are wondering about something, you look up the topic, and the Church tells you through the pages of the Catechism what a Christian should do in a certain circumstance. The councils and Catechisms have come about because people have asked questions and in order to refute heresy. The Church made its biggest leaps forward as the result of heresy. When a heresy was being spread, it forced the Church to look at its doctrine more closely and to refine it so they could say what was and was not sound doctrine. Without doctrinal development and the councils, no two people would completely agree on any topic.

[Guest racer]

Munari said:

Also, do you think the word Trinity rolled off the tongues of the first Apostles?

Oh, come on!

[munari]

Okay.   One thing I learn for certain, the more RCs I meet, is that your faith is not as unified as people claim.

You are right here, there are many Catholics who disagree with the Church. I claim that these people are not really Catholic, they are Catholic only in name or in culture and that's it. To be truly Catholic is to believe EVERYTHING the Church declares as doctrine. I think I've only recently become fully Catholic myself, and I may still not be quite there yet, but I agree on the major issues...

I beg to differ. (1) Where does Scripture say Mary was Immaculately Conceived?  Where does Scripture address the perpetual virginity of Mary?  (2) Where does Scripture institute confession to a Priest?  (3) Where does Scripture tell us to pray to anyone but Jesus?  (4) Where does Scripture mention a "Hail Mary?"

I numbered for ease's sake...

1. I'll leave this to Astralis, my Mariology is not the best when it comes to explaining the source of these issues.

2. Matthew 16:17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

19 would include sins

AND

John 20:21 (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

The Bible wasn't invented, it was compiled.  And even RCs admit that the Apocrypha is non-inspired text.

What Catholics????  I don't think most Catholics know what Apocrypha is...

Remember, Vatican I said that outside the RCC there was no salvation, Vatican II was a little more lenient.

Salvation in the sense they discussed it would not fall under faith and morals. Vat II was more lenient when it came to non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians. Those issues did not change a Catholic DOCTRINE, and it did not change morals. What it DID effect was how Catholics were to interact with non-Catholics and other ecumenical issues. There WOULD have been a problem if they declared that someone could obtain salvation some other way then through Christ, something they did NOT do.

They didn't give us the Bible.  They came to an agreement as to what books were verifiably inspired and which ones weren't.  I may be wrong, but I think the so-called councils agreed that the Apocrypha was not inspired, but of benefit to read.  And there is no proof that the men who compiled the Bible were Roman Catholic.  Clearly, the RCC was not satisfied with what Scripture contained or they would have not written the Catechism, Canon Code of Law, or created the elusive "Apostolic Traditions" which no RC seems to be aware of what exactly those traditions are.

Of course they gave us the Bible. They didn't write the books, but as you said, they compiled the list, so I think that is more of a symantics issue and not one of disagreement. The Apocrypha is included in the inspired texts in the council documentation. And, before you knock the Catechism or canon law, remember Paul said to hold on to the traditions that he passed on to the early Christians. And Canon Law is necessary, like rules and law is necessary in any organization. There has to be a set of rules that people agree upon, or there will be constant bickering.

Are you saying that Scripture doesn't tell us that it is inspired?

No, he's saying that other books claimed inspiration, but were rejected. A good example is the Koran.  

I can't speak for myself, but I believe the same Spirit, the Holy Spirit, which inspired the authors of Scripture, led the men who compiled the texts.

I agree with that, except I believe that when the Protestant reformers went back through the texts, they removed books that caused issues with their theology.

I agree.    For, instance the Book of Enoch and the Gospel of Thomas.  So?  

Enoch is accepted as scripture in the Catholic bible, Thomas is not.

No.  I trust the Holy Spirit who guided the men who compiled the text.  

But, it was MEN who compiled the books, who were guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did not force them to choose certain books, but inspired them. I'm sure there were heated debates over which books should and should not be included. The Holy Spirit guided them as a group.

So, show me where Jesus or the authors of the NT quoted from the Aprocrypha.  Convince me.  So, do you doubt the sufficiency of the books the Councils agreed upon for the NT?

I'll leave this one to Astralis. The Apocrypha is something I am not well versed on.

The endless need for "exceptions" to every rule, the never-ending supply of reasons why an extrabiblical concept is not really extrabiblical, should be a clue that the RCC is not everything you've been told it is.  How much of what you believe about your faith have you discovered on your own, and how much is based on what you've been told to believe by the RC.  The little threat of "damnation" that the RCC hold over all RCs heads should be a clue of the true intent of the RCC; if you turn away after having been a member and knowing the truth, you are  in danger of eternal damnation. Come on!  Do you really have no problem with such scare tactics to keep members within the fold?  Have you really stepped back and taken a non-biased look at your faith?

Yes, I have taken a non-biased look. In fact, I was very critical at a time thinking, "The Church just used communion and confession to scare people in the Middle Ages from leaving the Church because the didn't know better!" I was VERY synical. And, if I remember correctly, Astralis converted from a Protestant denomination. So yes, we've looked, we've read, we've analyzed, we've agreed with the Church. Have you ever looked at the Church with out the preconceived notion of "If its Catholic, it has to be wrong"?

That threat of damnation is not held there by the Church, its held there by Christ. We believe that the Catholic Church is THE TRUE Church, the one set up by Christ Himself! The Church where we receive Him each week (and every day if we wish) physically, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity! If you believe THAT and leave the Church after believing that, you are turning your back on Christ, you are rejecting Him. And, as we all agree, rejecting Christ wins one eternal damnation.

If you want to see how Marian doctrine and other Catholic doctrine are biblical, read "Hail, Holy Queen" and "The Lamb's Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth" by Scott Hahn. "The Mass of the Early Christians" by Mike Aqulina is also good, and so is "The Development of Christian Doctrine" by Cardinal John Henry Newman is also good, but quite heavy reading and difficult to understand at times.

[Guest astralis]

And even RCs admit that the Apocrypha is non-inspired text.

What??!

[Guest racer]

astralis,

What??!

[Guest racer]

munari,

You are right here, there are many Catholics who disagree with the Church. I claim that these people are not really Catholic, they are Catholic only in name or in culture and that's it. To be truly Catholic is to believe EVERYTHING the Church declares as doctrine. I think I've only recently become fully Catholic myself, and I may still not be quite there yet, but I agree on the major issues...

I wasn't referring to RCs that I've met disagreeing with the RCC.

[Guest racer]

munari,

You said:  I numbered for ease's sake.

My response:  I know your intentions were well intended.

[munari]

You're right, I forgot to mention 3 and 4.

I'm not going to find where it says it in the bible, but Christ tells us to pray for one another, and it is accepted that we can ask other to pray for us. When we ask someone to pray for us, we are in fact praying to that person, we are begging them or asking them sincerely to do something for us. That is also a definition of "pray".

4.

Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee (Luke 1:28), Blessed are you amongst women, and Blessed is the fruit of you womb (Luke 1:42), Jesus (I don't think anyone can complain about adding Jesus, it just names who is in the womb). Holy Mary (she was holy), Mother of God (she is Jesus' mother), pray for us sinners (asking her to pray for us sinners always), now and at the hour of our death.

As you can see, the first half of the Hail Mary is almost a direct quote from scripture. I don't think anyone would condem quoting scripture. The rest of it is simply adding a request, a request that I could ask you to do, to pray for me that I may be saved. I don't think anyone would try and argue that Mary was not Holy, for that too is biblical. I also don't think anyone would argue that Mary was the mother of Jesus, who is God. I don't think anyone will argue about us being sinners or that we need prayers now, and especially need them when we are dying.