Unleavened bread

[munari]

The NT does not address an office of "priest" except in reference to Jesus taking the place of Mechelzadick (sp?) and now being the one High Priest.  New Testament outlines the expectations of the offices of Bishops, Deacons, and elders.  It does not refer to priests.  Second, can you cite one instance of Jesus asking for a confession and doling out penance before healing the faithful.  He breaths on the apostles and commissions but gives not indication that they are to pass that duty on to their disciples.  He did not instruct them to hear confessions.  He just told them that whoever sins they remit will be remitted.  They didn't hear confessions or dole out penance.  What people confessed to the apostles was their faith in Christ.  Once they confessed their sinful nature, repented and confessed their faith in Christ, then the apostles were to remit their sins.

"Presbyters" are priests if I remember correctly.

And Christ DID say that this duty can be passed on. Where did he say this? He said this in Matthew 16 when he told Peter that whatever he binds on earth is bound in heaven and whatever he looses on earth is loosed in heaven. And this binding and loosing and the power of the keys is a reference to the end of Isaiah 22 where God talks about the keys of the kingdom of David, of whom Christ is in the line of. So Christ bears those keys and he passed them to Peter, and no one but Peter. We see Peter exercising this when an Apostle to replace Judas is named and in the "circumcision" council that the Apostles held.

[Guest racer]

munari,

Good Morning!

"Presbyters" are priests if I remember correctly.

Can this be found in Scripture?  

And Christ DID say that this duty can be passed on. Where did he say this? He said this in Matthew 16 when he told Peter that whatever he binds on earth is bound in heaven and whatever he looses on earth is loosed in heaven. And this binding and loosing and the power of the keys is a reference to the end of Isaiah 22 where God talks about the keys of the kingdom of David, of whom Christ is in the line of. So Christ bears those keys and he passed them to Peter, and no one but Peter. We see Peter exercising this when an Apostle to replace Judas is named and in the "circumcision" council that the Apostles held.

Oh, the famous Matt 16:18 argument.    Matt 16:18, "And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  19, "And I will give unto thee the keeys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thous shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

If you move on over and look at Matt 18:18, Jesus bestows the same on all of the apostles.  In Matt 16:23 Jesus calls Peter satan, not very complimentary.  I don't see Jesus telling Peter anything about passing on any type of authority, more less giving him any exclusive authority to begin with.  Actually, this is a separate topic, but I would be glad to start another thread if you'd like.  I have plenty of information from church fathers as to exactly what Jesus was referring to when He mentioned the Rock.

Basically, what Matt 16:18 is saying is that when it's all said and done, the Church of Christ will prevail.  It doesn't say the church will not struggle, nor does it say that the church or any leader of the Church is infallible.

[Guest racer]

munari,

You're right, I forgot to mention 3 and 4.

I'm not going to find where it says it in the bible, but Christ tells us to pray for one another, and it is accepted that we can ask other to pray for us. When we ask someone to pray for us, we are in fact praying to that person, we are begging them or asking them sincerely to do something for us. That is also a definition of "pray".

If you want a family member or friend to pray for you, you will either ask them directly, call them on the phone or write them a letter.

[munari]

Presbyter can be found in some versions. The onlie version I use that has a word search only has it once, but my old fashioned paper one mentions it several times in the epistles. I think it is sometimes translated as "elder" in some other versions.

1 Tim 4:14

Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate.

1 Tim 5:17 Presbyters who preside well deserve double honor, especially those who toil in preaching and teaching.

18 For the scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is threshing," and, "A worker deserves his pay."

19 Do not accept an accusation against a presbyter unless it is supported by two or three witnesses.

Titus 1:5 For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you,

[munari]

If Mary wasn't holy, then WHO is holy other than Christ himself? I can understand your statement if you reserve holy for only Christ though. I use it in a broader way and say that anyone can be holy if they live the right life and are focused on Christ.

If you can understand the concept of the Trinity, you can understand how Mary can be Jesus' mother and not God's.

But Jesus IS God, Mary is Jesus' Mother. Mary is the Mother of the Second person of the Trinity, she is the Mother of Jesus. She IS the Mother of God the Son, and so she is the Mother of God. Mothers are mother's of persons, not of natures. She is the mother of God the Son, but not his divine nature. Make sense? If not, can't blame you, I'm not sure if I make complete sense out of it, but I accept it because I don't take it to mean that Mary was the Mother of God the Father, that is not possible. When thinking of the Trinity, the most complete name for God is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Of course she can hear me     Revelations shows the saints and angels in heaven offering incense to God, which are the prayers of the saints (loosely Rev 5:8). Mary IS a saint...

You're right, scripture does condemn adding to scripture, but saying the Hail Mary does not add to scripture. We do not say the second half of the Hail Mary is scriptural, but we do think it is true.

[Guest astralis]

Yes, we need prayers, but why waste time going through the saints when you can go directly to Christ?

I truly appreciate it when my friends intercede for me and what can be more gracious than having a saint in heaven do it for me too?

[For Him Alone]

I have to get back in here, did ya miss me?

There is indeed a difference in living breathing human beings praying for each other during our time on earth and our going to spirits other than Jesus Christ to "intercede". Christ taught that there is NO way to the Father except through Him. He was explicit in this, and said it repeatedly. Do these Saints then take your prayer to Christ, who hands it to our Father? Saints cannot go 'directly' to the Father, because as Christ said, there is NO way to the Father but through HIM! ???????

So this saints interceding thing just doesn't hold water for me! If Christ said to go to Him, that's what we are to do! No passing go, no spiritual intercession. I honestly believe that Christ is offended by our thinking we NEED other spirits to intercede other than Him. And YES, this is different than the increased power that comes from many humans praying for one another to our Lord.

[Guest astralis]

FHA,

[Guest racer]

munari,

If Mary wasn't holy, then WHO is holy other than Christ himself? I can understand your statement if you reserve holy for only Christ though. I use it in a broader way and say that anyone can be holy if they live the right life and are focused on Christ.

Only Christ is holy.

[Guest racer]

astralis,

I truly appreciate it when my friends intercede for me and what can be more gracious than having a saint in heaven do it for me too?

Why do you think a saint supposedly in heaven can benefit you more than the living breathing saints here on earth? :???: