Unleavened bread

[Guest Jipsah]

If you want a family member or friend to pray for you, you will either ask them directly, call them on the phone or write them a letter.

[Guest astralis]

Why do you think a saint supposedly in heaven can benefit you more than the living breathing saints here on earth?

One can and should ask other Christians here on earth to pray for us. However, the more people one has praying for you, the better, as their devotion to God is added to ours.

In fact, the saints in heaven are even more suited to this than living Christians (the saints on earth) because they have undivided devotion toward God. Here on earth we are afflicted with lethargy, distractions, difficulty in concentration, and lack of fervor in prayer, but in heaven none of these are the case. Our brothers and sisters in heaven are the perfect prayer warriors, having been freed of the distractions of the body.

One may also cite in this regard admonition of James:

"The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (James 5:16b).

The saints in heaven, having been perfectly sanctified (saintified), are even more righteous than us, and so their prayers should have corresponding power in its effects. They are even better able to pray for us than we ourselves.

Why do you think we shouldn't ask the Saints in heaven to pray for us?

I have to agree that if there ever was to be a saint in heaven it would be Mary.  I truly believe that if anyone is in heaven, she would be there.  However, I don't believe she can hear your prayers.

Rev 5:8, "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the saints."

The prayers of the saints are our prayers.  Prayers made by you and me, the living.  If the prayers referred to in Rev 5:8 are being presented to anyone, it would be Christ, not God.

Christ is God.

"But maybe those weren't prayers to the saints but prayers to God!" This may well be true. However, a person who says this only digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven are aware of prayers which weren't even directed to them!

In any event, we know that the saints in heaven (whether human saints or angel saints because Hebrew uses the same word) are aware of our prayers and, based on them, intercede with God on our behalf.

Scripture agrees as well:

Psalm 103:20-21

Revelation 8:3-4

[For Him Alone]

Quote  

When you pray to the saints, you're taking a chance of praying to someone who is not even in heaven!

astralis said, "Well, no harm done, then.  That saint won't be praying for you."

OUCH! astralis, that wasn't funny at all. Surely you did not mean that!!!

Our God is a jealous God, and to pray TO anyone else than His Son isn't going to sit well with Him. I just can't see this!

For that matter, WE have free unfettered access to the Father through Christ, as He said we would if we believe in Him. We need no other spiritual intercession. If we did, then Christ's blood was unnecessary. Our relationship with Christ is the only intercession that leads to God. You didn't answer me, do you believe that the saints go directly to God and NOT through Christ? Because if that's what you are saying, it's a little scary. It goes against what Christ taught us to do! He never ever said to pray TO SAINTS to help our prayers be answered. Never. He said no one gets to the Father except through HIM ALONE.

[Guest astralis]

FHA,

[Guest Jipsah]

OUCH! astralis, that wasn't funny at all. Surely you did not mean that!!!

Our God is a jealous God, and to pray TO anyone else than His Son isn't going to sit well with Him.

That wasn't

[munari]

Let me ask this. Do you believe that once a Christian dies, they cease being a member of the Body of Christ? I hope not. But follow this. When a Christian dies in this world, they are reborn in Heaven, they have become perfect, completely focused on God. They are even MORE a part of the Boby of Christ for this reason, they are totally focused. And, since they are still members of the Body of Christ, we are not to say that one member is greater than another member, dead or alive.

1 Cor 12:

14 Now the body is not a single part, but many.

15 If a foot should say, "Because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body," it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.

16 Or if an ear should say, "Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body," it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.

17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?

18 But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended.

19 If they were all one part, where would the body be?

20 But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I do not need you," nor again the head to the feet, "I do not need you."

22 Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary,

23 and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety,

24 whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it,

25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another.

26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.

If you agree that dead Christians in heaven are still a part of the Body of Christ, then they are still are part of our lives and share in our glories and in our failures and can help us through the hard times.

Rev 5:8 show the elders offering incense to God. Incense is an offering. The elders are presenting and offering OUR prayers to God. In other words, they are petitioning to God for us. So, that means they must have heard our prayer and are offering their own prayer with out prayers to God for us. Now, if you disagree with this interpretation, the alternative is that when we pray to directly to God, it actually does not go directly to God, but is filtered by saints who intercepted the prayer and then pass it on to God...

You're right, God is jealous, but I think people often confuse prayer with worship. The relationship between prayer and worship is this: Everytime you worship, it is a form of prayer, but every prayer is not worship.

That is VERY important if you are to understand the Catholic concept of prayer. When we pray to the saints, we are not worshipping them, we are making a request.

When Christ said "The only way to the Father is through me", the way I understand it, he wasn't talking about prayer, but salvation. Salvation comes through Christ alone.

[Guest astralis]

About worship and prayer,  was it Augustine who said that singing is praying twice?

[munari]

About worship and prayer,  was it Augustine who said that singing is praying twice?

I dunno    

[Guest racer]

jipsah,

Hello!  

Well, no harm done, then.  That saint won't be praying for you.

So, why waste your time? :???:  Say, you have a close friend or family member who you know to have been a model christian.  Suppose he passes away, you are pretty sure he went to heaven.  Do you pray to him?

Jesus isn't God?  We're not veering toward Arianism here, are we?

Uh, no. ???  Don't think I said Jesus wasn't God.

I have a problem with the "mother of God" formulation myself, preferring "God bearer",but in either case, you have to remember that Jesus IS God Incarnate.

Yes, and Mary was His mother.  But, she was not God's mother.

Otherwise you step off into old, rotten heresies.

No.  I don't uphold any heresies.

Well no, actually you can't.  Jesus is wholly God, there are not three gods but one God, there are not three lords but one Lord.

Yes, but they are three separate entities, Mary is the Mother of Christ, not God or the Holy Spirit.

[Guest racer]

astralis,

One can and should ask other Christians here on earth to pray for us. However, the more people one has praying for you, the better, as their devotion to God is added to ours.

Yes, this is made clear by Paul.

In fact, the saints in heaven are even more suited to this than living Christians (the saints on earth) because they have undivided devotion toward God. Here on earth we are afflicted with lethargy, distractions, difficulty in concentration, and lack of fervor in prayer, but in heaven none of these are the case.

And you know this how?  How do you know the supposed saint is in Heaven.  If a family member, whom you know beyond a doubt to be a genuine christian, dies tomorrow, will you be praying to that person?

Our brothers and sisters in heaven are the perfect prayer warriors, having been freed of the distractions of the body.

But, you don't even know if they hear you, or if they are in heaven.

One may also cite in this regard admonition of James:

"The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (James 5:16b).

What about the NT verse which says something to the effect that, " . . . there are none righteous, not one?"

The saints in heaven, having been perfectly sanctified (saintified), are even more righteous than us, and so their prayers should have corresponding power in its effects.

You are applying, or using, human logic.  What you or I think should make sense is not necessarily what makes sense to God.

They are even better able to pray for us than we ourselves.

What makes you think so?

Why do you think we shouldn't ask the Saints in heaven to pray for us?

I don't necessarily think we shouldn't.  I merely said the practice is unscriptural and unnecessary.

Christ is God.

Correct.  He was God Incarnate.

This may well be true. However, a person who says this only digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven are aware of prayers which weren't even directed to them!

Actually, you don't have any idea how those elders obtained the prayers or if they were presenting the prayers to Christ.  To believe that these prayers were being presented to Jesus, we have to believe He's not even going to hear our prayers until the day of Judgement.

In any event, we know that the saints in heaven (whether human saints or angel saints because Hebrew uses the same word) are aware of our prayers and, based on them, intercede with God on our behalf.

No, I believe Rev 5:8 gives a specific number of "four and twenty elders," if your theory of sainthood is true, there are definitely more than 24 saints in heaven.  You have no proof of the statement said above.