Unleavened bread

[munari]

Yes, but they are three separate entities, Mary is the Mother of Christ, not God or the Holy Spirit.

I don't think entity is the word you want to use there. They are not 3 seperate entities, they are all one God. However, there are 3 persons of this one God.

I may misunderstand what you mean, but when I think of an entity, I think of something that is complete on its own. Saying that they are three seperate entities is like saying they are three separate Gods. I know this is not what you mean, I'm just cautioning on your choice of words so others do not think you are saying something you do not mean to say.

Also, when you say that Mary was not the mother of God, you probably also want to state that she was not the mother of God the Father, because she WAS the mother of God the Son.

[Guest Xan]

Mary was blessed and a model christian.

[Guest racer]

Munari,

Let me ask this. Do you believe that once a Christian dies, they cease being a member of the Body of Christ? I hope not.

No. I don't think they cease being a member of the Body of Christ.  The RCC does not canonize every christian that dies.  They only canonize specific people, whom I know nothing about.  I don't know what type of person the supposed saint was, or if he/she was even a true christian.  

But follow this. When a Christian dies in this world, they are reborn in Heaven, they have become perfect, completely focused on God. They are even MORE a part of the Boby of Christ for this reason, they are totally focused. And, since they are still members of the Body of Christ, we are not to say that one member is greater than another member, dead or alive.

Like I said, I might buy into this, if the RCC wasn't in complete control of who is canonized as a saint.  We have no guarantee that anyone actually makes it to heaven.

If you agree that dead Christians in heaven are still a part of the Body of Christ, then they are still are part of our lives and share in our glories and in our failures and can help us through the hard times.

Yes, but this would apply to all christians who die, not just those deemed saints by the RCC.

I have to leave for a bit, I'll get to the rest of your post later.  See ya!  

[munari]

From: http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren

[munari]

racer,

I said it before, those canonzied saints are what you could call "The Christian Hall of Fame". The Catholic Church infallibly declares a Saint a Saint, and so we can trust that they are in heaven.

If you want to find out about a saint, there are volumes of books that you can read on the saints to see how they lived. But, I'm sure you can accept the sainthood of Mary, the Apostles, Stephen (the first martyr, right?), and many other very holy people. Mother Theresa will be canonized a saint. I'm sure you know about her, don't you? She was a very holy person, devoted her life to God, surely she'll be in heaven, unless she was able to hide a blackened heart under all of those good deeds.

And, you are right, we can pray to anyone in heaven. If you have a grandmother who died and you know they are in heaven, pray to them. And, as Jipsah said, if the person is not there, they will not hear. But, you know what I believe, is that even when we pray to a saint, God still hears it too. Therefore, if you say a prayer and the saint you pray to (like a relative) is not in heaven, God still hears your prayer.

[Guest racer]

munari,

I don't think entity is the word you want to use there. They are not 3 seperate entities, they are all one God. However, there are 3 persons of this one God.

I may misunderstand what you mean, but when I think of an entity, I think of something that is complete on its own. Saying that they are three seperate entities is like saying they are three separate Gods. I know this is not what you mean, I'm just cautioning on your choice of words so others do not think you are saying something you do not mean to say.

Maybe you're right, and I used a poor choice of words, I meant entities as in separate persons.  A person is also complete on his own.  I'm confident most people who understand the Trinity understand what I meant.

Also, when you say that Mary was not the mother of God, you probably also want to state that she was not the mother of God the Father, because she WAS the mother of God the Son.

Okay, let me ask you this.  The majority of the time, when you are speaking specifically about Christ, how do you do that?  You probably say Jesus, our Lord and Savior, the Messiah, or Christ, right?  When referencing God, as in God the Father, you probably say God, right?  And when talking about the Holy Spirity, I'm sure you say Holy Spirit.  Am I wrong?  So, when talking about Mary, why do you insist on calling her the Mother of God instead of the Mother of Christ?

[Guest racer]

From: http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Munari, you are using a RC source to prove a point to a non-RC.

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

Who would you say the angel of Rev 8:3-4 was?

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren

[Guest Xan]

I'm sure the confusion of this conversation has more to do with semantics and being limited in truly understanding the Trinity, but you do understand Mary is not the mother of Yeshua, but rather the mother of His incarnated being since He has been since before the begining of time, right?

[Guest racer]

I said it before, those canonzied saints are what you could call "The Christian Hall of Fame". The Catholic Church infallibly declares a Saint a Saint, and so we can trust that they are in heaven.

Um, I disagree.  You could consider it the Roman Catholic Church Hall of Fame.  Since, all of the saints canonized by the RCC were RC.  Um, I'm not sure how you think the RCC can infallibly declare a Saint is in heaven, when you previously told me that infallibility only pertained to "faith and morals."  Remember you excluded salvation from those categories.  Also, remember that I don't recognize the claim of infallibility made by the RC.  There is not a man on earth who knows for certain who is in heaven.

If you want to find out about a saint, there are volumes of books that you can read on the saints to see how they lived.

Nobody can say what that saint felt in his heart.  Look at the history of corrupt leaders of the RCC.  There's no guarantee if someone was truly devout.

But, I'm sure you can accept the sainthood of Mary, the Apostles, Stephen (the first martyr, right?), and many other very holy people. Mother Theresa will be canonized a saint. I'm sure you know about her, don't you?

Yes, I'm very familiar with Mother Teresa.  She was a very noble woman who devoted her life helping other people.  But, there were those who claim she was devoted to Mary.  I do not know what Mother Teresa truly felt.  

Where does Scripture give anyone the authority to proclaim the surety of anyone's salvation?

She was a very holy person, devoted her life to God, surely she'll be in heaven, unless she was able to hide a blackened heart under all of those good deeds.

What makes you think she wouldn't have been able to hide a bad heart.  Besides, a person can have a good heart and not have faith.  I'm not saying that Mother T did, I'm just saying that there's no way to know for sure.

And, you are right, we can pray to anyone in heaven. If you have a grandmother who died and you know they are in heaven, pray to them. And, as Jipsah said, if the person is not there, they will not hear. But, you know what I believe, is that even when we pray to a saint, God still hears it too. Therefore, if you say a prayer and the saint you pray to (like a relative) is not in heaven, God still hears your prayer.

So, why pray to a saint? :???:

I believe you, astralis, and jipsah, when you say that by praying to saints you are asking them for their prayers and not worshipping--the majority of the time.  However, you can not deny that there are certain prayers, especially to Mary, that are explicitly praising her.  

[munari]

I never thought of it too much, but I don't think I usually speak of God the Father separately. When I say God, I'm not referring specifically to the Father. Holy Spirit and Jesus can be spoken of without clarification because it is not specific. When saying God, I am referring to God in general, or specific, depending on the topic, as in the case of Mother of God. I guess being a Catholic my whole life, I knew that people understood what I was saying...

I do understand your reservations about the title Mother of God. However, I think when speaking of Mother of God, it should be obvious that people do not think Mary was the mother of God the Father. I think the term Mother of God is used (when speaking of her giving birth to the second person of God) is so that you get the full effect of what God actually DID. Saying Mother of God shows us that our infinite God confined himself to a finite being. God became a human being! In order to be a human being, one must be born. By saying Mother of God, we are without a doubt declaring that Christ IS God.

Something else I also think non-Catholics get confused on is that ANYTHING that is said about Mary is not said to glorify Mary, but glorify Christ. By calling her Mother of God, it is not saying that she is greater than God, but it is reinforcing and making absolutely clear that we believe that Jesus IS God, and that he was born of a woman.