The Olive Tree, and the Jew

[shammah]

genesistorevelation.org

Romans 11

1 .THE OLIVE TREE AND THE JEW

T.H. SALMON

Very much has been said and written about the "Zionist movement". Not only Jews, but many Christians also, are expecting wonderful things to come from that "movement." But since one has come to realise how the Futurist theory really deceives the Jews with a "larger hope" doctrine, we have been forced to believe that modern "Zionism" is only another house built upon "sand" (Matt. 7:26) and therefore must fall. It is "Israel after the flesh" going about to establish their own righteousness again, without any desire to submit themselves to the righteousness of God. All flesh is grass which "withereth" (lsaiah40: 6),

It is generally believed also that the "fig tree" of Luke 13:6; Matt. 21:19, 24: 32, is a symbol of the Jewish nation, and that this Zionism is the fig tree putting forth leaves; if so we have another strong reason for believing that the Zionist movement will collapse, because the Lord said, "Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever." If, therefore, the Zionist movement is the fig tree, we certainly find here sufficient proof that it cannot succeed, it will produce "nothing but leaves", which can only wither away again. What then is in store for the Jews?

In attempting to answer that question we must begin by saying that there is no Jewish nation. A nation is a body of people inhabiting the same country or living under one government. But the vast majority of the Jewish people are still under various Gentile governments, and even those who have gone to Palestine do not own the capital city. How then can it be maintained that this present "Zionist" movement is a rebirth of the Jewish nation? There has been no Jewish nation since A.D. 70, when it was overthrown by the Romans. At least, not in the sense outlined by the Futurists, namely, they would possess all their ancient heritage. God has fulfilled His promise to Abraham, as we have seen; and whereas we can find nothing in the New Testament about any future national hope for the Jews, the clear inference is that there is none. . . [We must understand the writer to be speaking of a nation, in the `prophetic` programme of God, not, as we have at present, a nation of Jews and Arabs, of Black and White, ` in the `providential` programme of God. We ought not to speculate as to what God may well do in His providential dealings, or in His governmental dealings, with the nations of the world; the present nation of Israel included]

The "all Israel" of Romans 9:27 and 11: 12-26 certainly cannot mean every Jew, for millions have died in their sins. Unbelieving Jews, like all other unbelievers, who are not "in Christ," are "in Adam," and are children of the flesh; these are not the children of God (Rom. 9:8). The flesh profiteth nothing (John 6:63). Know ye therefore that they which are of faith the same are the children of Abraham. And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3: 7, 29).

Like Esau, Israel after the flesh, sold his birthright, and lost the inheritance when they killed the "Heir of all things." And so the Kingdom of God has been taken from them and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom, "righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost." "The fruits thereof," are spiritual fruits, or fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, etc., and the fruit of the lips-giving thanks to His Name. And the "nation" to whom all this is given is a spiritual nation. It can be none other than that "holy nation" and peculiar people of 1 Peter 2: 9.

In our study of this subject, two very important truths that are revealed only in the New Testament should not be overlooked. The first is that they are not all Israel which are of Israel, and that he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, but he is a Jew which is one inwardly (Rom. 2:28-29, 9:6). If we ignore this important truth we certainly must place a wrong interpretation on the words "All Israel shall be saved."

The second important truth is that there are two Israels. One is called "Israel after the flesh" (1 Cor. 10:18), and the other "The Israel of God" (Gal. 6: 16). The fig tree is, we believe, a symbol of the former, and the good olive tree a symbol of the latter. The one is natural and the other is spiritual Israel. And that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural and temporal, and afterward that which is spiritual and eternal (2 Cor. 4: 18).

Now, if the fig tree is a symbol of natural Israel, we must remember that it came under the curse of the Lord; indeed it appears to have been the only thing He cursed during His ministry on earth. This is very significant, and very solemn, and reminds us of such Scriptures as Deut. 28: 15, Mal. 3:9, etc. A great deal is being said about a national restoration of Israel, whereas to us the plain teaching of God's Word is that Israel after the flesh must die like all flesh which is "profitable for nothing" (Jer. 13:7-10). Natural Israel is a marred vessel "that cannot be made whole again," so the Lord has to make it "another vessel" (Jer. 19: 11, 18: 3-4).

Instead of trying to mend and restore the old marred vessel, God is making a new Israel. This is "the Israel of God", a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a "royal diadem" in His hand (Isa. 62: 3), and a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17), called by a new name (Isa. 62:2; Acts 11: 26). This new Israel is the "one new man" of Eph. 2: 15, and the "holy nation" of 1 Peter 2:9, His workmanship created in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:10).

The only hope for the Jewish people, as for all other people is the new birth. They must be born again or perish. And the new birth is a personal and individual matter. Even as the Lord Jesus very clearly explained to Nicodemus a ruler of the Jews, there is no such as "national conversions and restorations," (see Jn. 3: 3-5; Acts 2: 38-41). Does not Ezek. 16: 53-55 show that there is no more hope of Israel being restored to her former state than Sodom and Samaria? ..... Except the Jews repent of that awful crime, and save themselves from that "untoward generation" (Acts 2: 40), they will surely perish. And it is now in this period of grace that repentance and remission of sins is preached in His Name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Not a word of Scripture can I find to authorize us in believing that there is any hope of salvation for anyone after this age of grace has closed.

(The Lord Cometh pp. 56-59).

2. THE OLIVE TREE AND THE MILLENNIUM

L. A. HEERBOTH

Let us now consider Romans 11: 25-27, which the Millenarians believe to be the principle New Testament proof for a general conversion of the Jews. The passage reads as follows: "I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" Romans 11: 25-27.

It is certain that St. Paul does not deny what he has stated in the whole section comprising Romans 9: 1-11; 24, namely, that not "all Israel according to the flesh," but only a remnant of Israel will be saved, "according to the election of grace" (Romans 11: 5-11). Furthermore, the purpose of this section, chapters 9-11, is to prove that the promises of God concerning Israel are being fulfilled, that they have not become void, even if not all Jews are saved. That this is the intention of St. Paul he declares when he says: "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Romans 9: 5-8). Mark well how he distinguishes between "all Israel" and those "which are of Israel." The same distinction he makes in Romans 2: 28, 29, saying: "He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly;.... but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly." (Compare Matt. 3: 9; John 8: 39-44; 1: 47; Rev. 2: 9).

In the light of such clear definitions we are compelled to take the phrase "all Israel" in our text as denoting all true Israel, all such as are genuine children of Abraham (John 8: 39; Gal. 3: 29). This is expressly stated in the promise quoted by St. Paul in 11: 26 from Isaiah 59: 20 where we read: "The Redeemer shall come to Zion, and (compare the Hebrew text: namely) unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord." Hence, not all such as can trace their natural descent to Abraham, but all Israel according to the Spirit, that is, all "who turn from transgression in Jacob," who believe in the promised Redeemer, shall be saved. This remnant of Israel, together with the elect of the Gentiles, they are the children of Abraham, the true Israel (Rom. 4: 11, 12). In full agreement with the statement that only a remnant of the people of Israel shall be saved, St. Paul declares "that blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." This is saying that not all Jews are hardened, blinded, and excluded from salvation as some Bible-readers may imagine when reading passages like Isaiah 6; Acts 13: 46, 47; I Thess. 2: 16. Only a "part," a portion, of Israel is blinded; but God has preserved a remnant, a "holy seed" (Isaiah 6: 13; Romans 9: 27-29); and this remnant shall be saved.

Now the blindness which has befallen the greater part of Israel- for "remnant" indicates a small part-will continue "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in," until this "fulness" has been brought into the fold of the Good Shepherd. The "fulness of the Gentiles" does not mean "all Gentiles" but the "full number" of all the elect out of the Gentiles, as is easily seen, especially here, where by "all Israel" all the elect out of Israel (v. 7) must be understood. The gathering and coming in of "the fulness of the Gentiles," however, does not cease before the end of the world, as we learn from Matt. 24: 14; "This gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come;" and the preaching of the gospel always has a converting and saving power and effect (Isa. 55: 10, 11; Jer. 23: 29; Rom.1: 16; 1 Cor. 1: 18). Hence we know that the gathering of "the fulness of the Gentiles" shall not be completed at some period of time before the end. These words of St. Paul (Rom. 11: 25) exclude all hope for a future great or even universal conversion of the Jews; blindness of the greater part of Israel will continue until the end of the world.

Paul continues: "And so all Israel shall be saved" (Rom. 11: 26). Here we must point out the great mistake of the Millennarians. They take the adverb of manner, "so," as an adverb of time, in the sense of "then, thereafter." This is inadmissible, for it not only changes the meaning of the text, but also makes the Holy Ghost contradict Himself, saying something here which is at variance with other passages of His Holy Word (for instance, 1 Thess. 2: 16). The adverb "so" denotes the manner in which the Word of God quoted from Isa. 59: 20 will be fulfilled. God's promise regarding Israel does not remain without effect (Rom. 9: 6); God has not "cast away His people" entirely or in their totality (Rom. 11: 1), not so completely that they have become like Sodom and Gomorrah (Rom. 9: 29); He has left them a remnant, a seed, which will be converted and again be "grafted into their own olive tree" (Rom. 11: 24). And "so," in this manner, the promise will come true that "all Israel shall be saved," that is, the promise to all "that turn from transgression in Jacob" (Isa. 59: 20). And the gathering of this remnant will continue "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in," that is, as we have shown, unto the end of the world.

(The Millennium and the Bible pp. 13-17).

3. THE OLIVE TREE AND THE CHURCH

O. T. ALLIS

Paul's familiar illustration of the olive tree in Romans 11: 17-24 requires especial attention. For in it the apostle gives us a very clear presentation of the relation which exists between the Church and the Old Testament economy in which he had grown up and the true nature of which he had so completely misunderstood that he had persecuted the "church of God."

There is, Paul tells us, one good olive tree. Some of the branches are broken off. Branches from a wild olive are grafted in among the branches which remain, that they "may partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree." The new branches represent Gentile Christians. It would be difficult to state more clearly that the Gentiles in entering the Christian Church become members of a body, a church or theocracy, which has its roots in the Abrahamic covenant and to which all true descendants of Abraham belong. The tree represents the true Israel. Faith is the bond of union. Some of the natural branches have been broken off because of unbelief. Branches of a wild olive are grafted in among them (i.e. among the good branches that are left) on the basis of faith. From this Paul draws two important and weighty inferences. The first is that, since unbelief caused the breaking off of some of the natural branches, the branches of the new graft owe their present status, their participation in the root and fatness of the olive tree, solely to faith. If they become unbelieving, they will be cut off. This is a solemn warning to the Gentiles against presumption and carnal security. The second inference is the one which bears most directly on Paul's argument. Since the Gentiles owe their present condition to grace alone, it is only to be expected that the same grace which spared them who in a sense have no title to the blessings they enjoy, will also restore the natural branches which should by right enjoy these blessings, by means of that same faith on the basis of which alone Jew or Gentile can be in and remain in the olive tree, i.e., can enjoy the blessings of the covenant through membership in the household of faith. In short, what Paul is saying here is simply by way of illustration and application of his argument in chapter 4, that Abraham is "the father of all them that believe" (v. 11), whether Jew or Gentile, circumcision or uncircumcision. They are the true "Israel of God" (Gal. 6: 16).

It is only to be expected that such a passage as this would cause Dispensationalists great difficulty. Their easiest course is to ignore it. But this is hardly possible. Darby's explanation as given in the "Synopsis" is obscure. If we understand him correctly, the olive tree represents the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant. These are earthly and, therefore, cannot concern the Church, all of whose blessings are heavenly. The tree is the "tree of promise," and it "remains in the earth." The natural branches are broken off. Gentiles are grafted in that they may enjoy these earthly blessings. They become unfaithful (Darby speaks of this as hypothetical, but he clearly regards it as certain to take place); and then the natural branches, the Jews, are to be grafted in again. Darby does not refer specifically to the "professing church." But since he denies that the true Church (the assembly) is referred to here, by Gentiles he must mean the professing church. Consequently, according to Darby, we have here a parable of the Jews, the professing church, and the future Jewish remnant-all earthly-and of the earthly promises which concern them, but not a word about the true Church, which is heavenly. The inadequacy of this interpretation is so obvious as to make detailed discussion of it unnecessary.

Scofield has very little to say about this important passage. He tries to avoid the difficulties in which Darby involved himself, by interpreting the good olive tree as representing Christ; and, like Darby, he directs attention to the difference between the promises to Israel and those to the Church, despite the fact that the whole aim of Paul's illustration is to show that the Gentiles are to partake of the "root and fatness" of the olive tree, i.e., are to enjoy with the Jews all that is of real and lasting worth in the blessings promised to the true seed of Abraham.

How determined Dispensationalists are to insist upon a distinction which Paul ignores, is shown by the way in which Darby and Scofield in dealing with Romans 9-11 stress the earthly blessings promised to Israel in order to force the conclusion that the Church and Israel are quite distinct, despite the fact that in this elaborate discussion Paul has nothing to say about earthly blessings and aims to show that the spiritual blessings promised to Israel are to be secured only by faith, and are the common possession of all believers, both Jew and Gentile. Paul's concern for Israel was not that they might inherit the land of Canaan, but that they might be saved ("Romans 10: 1; cf. vs. 9). And in his proclamation of the gospel Paul made no distinction between Jew and Gentile (vs. 12).

(Prophecy and the Church pp. 108-110). Shalom, and Love in Yah Shua, shammah-2

From Topic (Jews allowed, Gentiles not required), research found after discussion about the Kingdom of God=The Israel of God, a spiritual Kingdom, Jew, and Gentile

genesistorevelation.org previous top

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings All,

As might be guessed, I can not pass this post up without adding my 2c. As I read through it, I saw that there is a lot of truth to what Shammah has said, but as I kept reading, my thoughts continually drifted to the Serpent's guile in twisting God's word - "Ye shall not surely die." Or Satan in the desert tempting Jesus: "If you will only bow down to me." What gall, what audacity to come to this forum and telling everyone HE has been given a special gift, an insight from God into the TRUTH, that apparently NO ONE else has. I have said from the beginning, that Shammah has AN AGENDA, and as you can see he persists in trying to cram it down our throats.

I wish this could have been a friendly discussion, both learning and contributing to the edification of the other, but it seems that Shammah WILL NOT RESPOND directly to the scriptures I have proffered, and if anyone is interested, I hope and pray you take a close look at all the posts submitted on this subject.

My spirit is unsettled because of this "momentary" tirade I have been on, because the Lord makes it clear that as much as is possible we should be at peace with all men. I would really like to take a whip and "cleanse out the Temple of Shammah", but instead, I would just like to express my regret that this issue has escalated to this post.

I pray for the forums forgiveness for myself AND for Shammah. But I also ask that no one be blinded by the long windedness and the subtle twisting of the scriptures by Shammah.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[shammah]

Here you go again, this article that was saying the same thing as I, was a confirmation that I didn't have an agenda, neither did I have some secret knowledge no one else had. It is spiritual truth shared by the body of Christ; you say it's been crammed down someones throat because you didn't like it, and it didn't agree with your agenda, then you attack and call me a serpent, of Satan in effect, when all I've tried to do is bring forth spiritual food and blessings! You attack the good word and the people of God without remorse.

Yes we all have special gifts, each one, and we are to use them; and by the confirmation of this article someone else also has a similar gift!

Some spirit in you wants to whip me and clean out my temple, if they persecuted Christ they will also persecute His people; Why do you do this to the least of the Lords people? I'm of the least I admit, but what ever you do unto the least you do unto our Lord. If this doesn't bother you that you treat not just me, but others this way, then maybe there is something wrong with your heart. You show no Love, and without love, anything you say is diminished. I've never experienced anyone who claims to be a christian attack the body of Christ like this; I grieve for you ; and I'm feel sorry for anyone who differs in opinion here to be greeted by you. I have been told that to get along with you, we need to be careful what we say or you'll keep harassing us! What a sorry place to fellowship; but to the rest of you other than Ernie Dad; I'm sorry we can't just fellowship and use our gifts and love and commune in the body as believers. I know my wife and I are dissapointed that sharing are hearts in this place has been made so difficult by one person; We forgive him but it may be time to move on; Agape in Christ Jesus; Shammah-2.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Here you go again, this article that was saying the same thing as I, was a confirmation that I didn't have an agenda, neither did I have some secret knowledge no one else had. It is spiritual truth shared by the body of Christ; you say it's been crammed down someones throat because you didn't like it, and it didn't agree with your agenda, then you attack and call me a serpent,  of Satan in effect, when all I've tried to do is bring forth spiritual food and blessings! You attack the good word and the people of God without remorse.

Yes we all have special gifts, each one, and we are to use them; and by the confirmation of this article someone else also has a similar gift!

Some spirit in you wants to whip me and clean out my temple, if they persecuted Christ they will also persecute His people; Why do you do this to the least of the Lords people? I'm of the least I admit, but what ever you do unto the least you do unto our Lord. If this doesn't bother you that you treat not just me, but others this way, then maybe there is something wrong with your heart. You show no Love, and without love, anything you say is diminished. I've never experienced anyone who claims to be a christian attack the body of Christ like this; I grieve for you ; and I'm feel sorry for anyone who differs in opinion here to be greeted by you. I have been told that to get along with you, we need to be careful what we say or you'll keep harassing us! What a sorry place to fellowship; but to the rest of you other than Ernie Dad; I'm sorry we can't just fellowship and use our gifts and love and commune in the body as believers. I know my wife and I are dissapointed that sharing are hearts in this place has been made so difficult by one person; We forgive him but it may be time to move on; Agape in Christ Jesus; Shammah-2.

Sorry Shammah don't leave and don't Judge us all by one bad experience. There are plenty of friendly brothers and sisters here to fellowship with. We are all learning and growing in the truth. As a servant of the lord we most be gentle, kind and with much patience teach others or even learn from others.

Sorry if you felt attacked this tends to happen a lot, but as brothers as sister in Christ we should strive to keep the unity of Spirit amoung us and we should look for areas that we agree with more then areas we disagree with.

[Guest yod]

Shammah...please try to consider that we have folks coming in all the time with various doctrines as if they know it all. I think that DE has a good point when he says that you don't respond to him.

Much of what you say is your opinion of what the text says. Can you confess that? We all have our opinions and that's why we have a place for discussion. Ernie believes that you are ignoring his opinion and he's probably got a point there.

I disagree also with some of that last post. It pretty much left me when it got to this line...

This remnant of Israel, together with the elect of the Gentiles, they are the children of Abraham, the true Israel (Rom. 4: 11, 12).

This verse has nothing to do with Gentiles becoming Israel.

Israel was never an obedient people. They were rebelling from the moment Jacob was born yet God carried them for the sake of the Fathers...which includes Abraham.

The prophets spoke of a day when the Gentiles would come to Israel bringing their sons and daughters back the land. If Gentiles are Israel, then how can Israel come to Israel? Who are the gentiles if the gentiles are Israel??? It just makes scripture complicated when it doesn't need to be.

think about what you are saying and look at this verse in Romans 11:11

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

No where does Paul make any distinction that this is not "true" Israel though he clearly is speaking of the unsaved nation which "stumbled" (not fell beyond recovery). This is the same Israel that he's talking about only a few verses later when he says "All Israel will be saved". I believe he's referring to Zechariah's prophecy of "they shall look upon Him whom they've pierced and shall mourn for Me...."

God has a plan and we ALL have our place and part in it. I believe that "true Israel" is the remnant of jews who are coming to faith as a witness to their brothers in the flesh. Maybe I see it differently because I'm closely involved with this movement...but it's not like anything that has ever happened in the history of the world, man.

The Gentiles have come into the Kingdom! Hallelujah! Rejoice! Many more will still be coming!

Yet now "the time to favor Zion has come" also.....and the jews are starting to find their Messiah like never before.

[shammah]

I keep addressing that the new covenant brought forth the family of God, an heavenly and spiritual nation, this is the nation that took away the kingdom of the levitical priesthood, and gave it to the nation bringing forth the fruits. But these are spiritual issues, this is the third time I address this nation bringing forth the fruits (the Kingdom of God ) but Ernie still says I haven't addressed it.

Until Christ returns the nation is the spiritual family, it is the kingdom within, it does bring forth the fruits, and the heritage of abraham, Issac , and Jacob, allow for it to be called also, in the spirit (The Israel of God)! You can call it the family of God or the kingdom of God, but God has shown me that he is not offended by the term the Israel of God; but He considers all of His people to be grafted into the root and heritage of a Spiritual people; he is Not ashamed to use Israel in the Spirit to represent His people! Shammah-2. Agape

[Guest yod]

It's not a matter of "shame" Shammah

But words mean things and it does seem like you are being loose with definitions here. In this last missive you were dogmatically stating things that aren't actually said in the scriptures.

If you said "I think" this or that it would be much easier to accept your opinion but you are stating these things as if you have the authority to interpret and no one can question your views.....so I must point out that these are only your opinions of what is being said by text.

Perhaps valid....perhaps not...but opinions nonetheless.

No where does the Bible actually say that gentiles become spiritual Israel. It is only an opinion which can't be emphatically proven that gentiles are who Paul is talking about when he says the "Israel of God" in Galatians.

It is not unreasonable of DE to see that verse in Galatians and get a totally different meaning than the one you get.

I'm neutral on the matter though I tend to agree with DE that it probably isn't talking about gentiles at all...yet admit that it "could" be.

It's just not conclusive enough to be dogmatic either way....and not worth you guys getting offended at each other.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Shammah,

I keep addressing that the new covenant brought forth the family of God, an heavenly and spiritual nation, this is the nation that took away the kingdom of the levitical priesthood, and gave it to the nation bringing forth the fruits. But these are spiritual issues, this is the third time I address this nation bringing forth the fruits (the Kingdom of God ) but Ernie still says I haven't addressed it.

Until Christ returns the nation is the spiritual family, it is the kingdom within, it does bring forth the fruits, and the heritage of abraham, Issac , and Jacob, allow for it to be called also, in the spirit (The Israel of God)! You can call it the family of God or the kingdom of God, but God has shown me that he is not offended by the term the Israel of God; but He considers all of His people to be grafted into the root and heritage of a Spiritual people; he is Not ashamed to use Israel in the Spirit to represent His people!

I appreciate Yod. You haven't been around long enough to have seen the disputes/debates he and I have had on this particular issue. I agree with him wholly that you have come here announcing yourself as the "authority" of interpretation of the scriptures instead of just acknowledging that "this is YOUR opinion." I have given you numerous reasons WHY the "Israel of God" does NOT refer to gentiles being "spiritual Israel". Can you please address this one issue for me:

According to Romans 9-11 and Ephesians 1-3 God is NOT finished with Israel as a "people group" as of yet, but will in the latter days, in times of tribulation will receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ from those who know Him, and the two of these shall be made "one in Christ" - a habitation of God wherein He shall dwell in them through His Holy Spirit.

Do you or do you not agree with that?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

and the two of these shall be made "one in Christ" - a habitation of God wherein He shall dwell in them through His Holy Spirit.

I agree with Shammah & Jedi here. We already are that....

My opinion is that in the latter days there will be more of a jewish flavor to it as a larger percentage of jews become "true jews"

The "Israel of God" will then take the place she was always meant to have as the nation where Yeshua rules the world from.

In that day...when the Torah goes forth from Zion....we will all live as the commonwealth of Israel....and there will be no doubt about the true Israel of God.

In the meantime there is room for arguement and I know how much you and I like that, DE! hehehehe

Maybe the most we can hope for in this thread is a mutual respect for each others opinions...allowing some grace where we differ?

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Greetings Shammah,

I keep addressing that the new covenant brought forth the family of God, an heavenly and spiritual nation, this is the nation that took away the kingdom of the levitical priesthood, and gave it to the nation bringing forth the fruits. But these are spiritual issues, this is the third time I address this nation bringing forth the fruits (the Kingdom of God ) but Ernie still says I haven't addressed it.

Until Christ returns the nation is the spiritual family, it is the kingdom within, it does bring forth the fruits, and the heritage of abraham, Issac , and Jacob, allow for it to be called also, in the spirit (The Israel of God)! You can call it the family of God or the kingdom of God, but God has shown me that he is not offended by the term the Israel of God; but He considers all of His people to be grafted into the root and heritage of a Spiritual people; he is Not ashamed to use Israel in the Spirit to represent His people!

I appreciate Yod. You haven't been around long enough to have seen the disputes/debates he and I have had on this particular issue. I agree with him wholly that you have come here announcing yourself as the "authority" of interpretation of the scriptures instead of just acknowledging that "this is YOUR opinion." I have given you numerous reasons WHY the "Israel of God" does NOT refer to gentiles being "spiritual Israel". Can you please address this one issue for me:

According to Romans 9-11 and Ephesians 1-3 God is NOT finished with Israel as a "people group" as of yet, but will in the latter days, in times of tribulation will receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ from those who know Him, and the two of these shall be made "one in Christ" - a habitation of God wherein He shall dwell in them through His Holy Spirit.

Do you or do you not agree with that?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Dad Ernie,

Shammah has not said that he was the authority of Scripture. I believe he was just expressing his opinion just as everyone has. You say that he is being dogmatic about what he believes yet you are being just as dogmatic about your own beliefs and you are not giving others room for their opinion. This is very hypocritical and bigotive of you.

From the get-go you have railed him and showed no mercy nor love at all. Shammah has just as much of opinion as anyone else on this subject and you need to learn to respect others opinion even if its not your own.

The bible teaches that a servant of the Lord must not strive but be gentile, kind and patient. I have not seen that from your post here.

Hope you dont take this as an attack but as a brotherly rebuke.

God bless,