Denomination

[ncn]

I have not read the whole thread, but I will say this.

When it comes to choosing, I have chosen not to choose. Aka I am non-denominational.

Heres how I see it

If your beliefs line up with the Bible on the major issues, such as Who God is, How do we get saved, etc. then you are a brother of mine. If you deny the diety of Jesus, if you say that we can work our way into heaven etc, then we have issues. Also if you twist the scriptures to make something acceptable, when it is black and white clear, then we also have issues.

How ever, if you are pre-trib, or if you think that drinking is a sin, or you don't think drinking is a sin, or your post-rapture, or you believe in speaking of tongues, or you don't, I do not see these as major salvation issues. These are all disagreements on the interpretation of passages of scripture that can go both ways, and while important, are not necessary for salvation. Many people never that love the Lord, have not even been privileged to read the bible to even begin to argue over such things, and they die, sometimes with out ever seeing a bible, but yet they have heard the word, and they believed, in Jesus. that was the most important thing.

Now with those issues, you can debate the interpretation, as long as you do not twist the word to prove your point. Such as those that twist the word to say that God is okay with homosexuality, and that he made them that way. This does not line up with the word on any level, but yet they preach it. If a denomination starts to do that, then they are heading into a cult like practice.

So in a nutshell, if you decide you want to pick a denomination, then Major on the Majors and minor on the minors.

I couldn't agree more. One of the first posts that I have read here that gives me hope, thank you for posting it.

NIgel.

[Guest Kasey777]

Gosh....good subject! I am of a Messianic Jewish upbringing and I am married to a Methodist Pastor.

I myself am a "Non-denominational" Pastor. Every denom has both pros and cons, just like any Church...

The reason I prefer my Messianic upbringing and the non-denom is for two reason. First, the Messianic congregation is in line with the First Century Church and follows both Old and New Covenants because they are intertwined....so we make every effort to obey "all" of God's Word and recognize what Yeshua the Messiah has done for everyone who believes that He is the Son of God...that He really did come back from the dead and He really does sit next to His Father (ours too) in heaven.

The second reason is because "every" denomination in the United States is the result of a "Church Split"....(I am a religious studies major, graduated with a 4 year degree in that (and Psychology) before heading to Seminary...) I said that because I wanted to be sure folks know that this is really true about denominations...

The idea of becoming a member of a Church that came out of a "Church Divorce"...just doesn't feel safe to me....BUT, that said...this is only my thoughts on the matter...doesn't have to ba someone's "rule".

So what Church, what denomination.....you have to find one that follows the Scripture soundly and has not added so much of their own dogma and doctrine that it strangles the Holy Spirit.

Blessings

Edited October 8, 2011 by Kasey777

[Botz]

Gosh....good subject! I am of a Messianic Jewish upbringing and I am married to a Methodist Pastor.

I myself am a "Non-denominational" Pastor. Every denom has both pros and cons, just like any Church...

The reason I prefer my Messianic upbringing and the non-denom is for two reason. First, the Messianic congregation is in line with the First Century Church and follows both Old and New Covenants because they are intertwined....so we make every effort to obey "all" of God's Word and recognize what Yeshua the Messiah has done for everyone who believes that He is the Son of God...that He really did come back from the dead and He really does sit next to His Father (ours too) in heaven.

The second reason is because "every" denomination in the United States is the result of a "Church Split"....(I am a religious studies major, graduated with a 4 year degree in that (and Psychology) before heading to Seminary...) I said that because I wanted to be sure folks know that this is really true about denominations...

The idea of becoming a member of a Church that came out of a "Church Divorce"...just doesn't feel safe to me....BUT, that said...this is only my thoughts on the matter...doesn't have to ba someone's "rule".

So what Church, what denomination.....you have to find one that follows the Scripture soundly and has not added so much of their own dogma and doctrine that it strangles the Holy Spirit.

Blessings

Jesus started a Church.

Nope, He is the Head of the One Church...the ekklesia...the 'called out' ones...He did not start the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, The Protestant Churches or the Baptist Church or any other organization that seeks exclusivity and believes their organization alone represents the true Church....the mark of a Believer is not what church or denomination they belong to, it is whether they have been regenerated through the blood of Jesus, are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and are obedient to the One in whom they have believed. Many organizations mis-represent the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles and have been swayed by the traditions of men and unbiblical doctrines, rather than directed by the Holy Spirit, and are more interested in presenting a religious outward appearance than being obedient to the truth from a pure heart. We need to check ourselves daily, to see whether we remain in the truth, and walk in the light, led by the Spirit and not walking in the flesh...which can so easily be disguised in a religious wrapping.

Thoughtfully. Botz

[stacey c]

Gosh....good subject! I am of a Messianic Jewish upbringing and I am married to a Methodist Pastor.

I myself am a "Non-denominational" Pastor. Every denom has both pros and cons, just like any Church...

The reason I prefer my Messianic upbringing and the non-denom is for two reason. First, the Messianic congregation is in line with the First Century Church and follows both Old and New Covenants because they are intertwined....so we make every effort to obey "all" of God's Word and recognize what Yeshua the Messiah has done for everyone who believes that He is the Son of God...that He really did come back from the dead and He really does sit next to His Father (ours too) in heaven.

The second reason is because "every" denomination in the United States is the result of a "Church Split"....(I am a religious studies major, graduated with a 4 year degree in that (and Psychology) before heading to Seminary...) I said that because I wanted to be sure folks know that this is really true about denominations...

The idea of becoming a member of a Church that came out of a "Church Divorce"...just doesn't feel safe to me....BUT, that said...this is only my thoughts on the matter...doesn't have to ba someone's "rule".

So what Church, what denomination.....you have to find one that follows the Scripture soundly and has not added so much of their own dogma and doctrine that it strangles the Holy Spirit.

Blessings

Jesus started a Church.

Nope, He is the Head of the One Church...the ekklesia...the 'called out' ones...He did not start the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, The Protestant Churches or the Baptist Church or any other organization that seeks exclusivity and believes their organization alone represents the true Church....the mark of a Believer is not what church or denomination they belong to, it is whether they have been regenerated through the blood of Jesus, are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and are obedient to the One in whom they have believed. Many organizations mis-represent the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles and have been swayed by the traditions of men and unbiblical doctrines, rather than directed by the Holy Spirit, and are more interested in presenting a religious outward appearance than being obedient to the truth from a pure heart. We need to check ourselves daily, to see whether we remain in the truth, and walk in the light, led by the Spirit and not walking in the flesh...which can so easily be disguised in a religious wrapping.

Thoughtfully. Botz

Amen and Amen. It's all about relationship not religion!

[JohnD]

What Denomination do you belong to?

Were you born into it or did you research and compair the differances then select the one which best suited you?

My main fellowship is a New Testement, Non Denominational congergation which is Pastered by a guy who graduated Vala Victorian in his class i'm proud to say.

I also attend a Sevent Day Adventist Church 'cause i call the sabbath a dellight. I'd join the SDA if not for the extra-biblical writtings of Ellen G. White. I like that they are so concerned about good health and wholeness of being. They're also the last of the Protestant denominations who remember who the Scarlet Woman is.

I also like this Messianic Jewish congregation cause nobody can expound the old and the new like a former Rabbi whos seen the light.

I note in John chapter 17 among the many theological gems there a prayer of the Messiah to the Father that there be unity in the body of believers A unity that he harped on in the text and compared to the unity in the Godhead itself. A unity the Church has not known for nearly 17 centuries. The reason we have so many denominations is not so much the proper fitting to an individual's own preferences or comfort, but because mere mortal men keep trying to reinvent the wheel... from all the other worldly manifestations depicting how mere mortal men have determined the Church of God should be. We have the blueprint in the Bible. But because people do not take the Bible to heart or do not believe it is the final court of arbitration which God set it up to be... then it's a matter of interpretation based on the opinions, experiences, and traditions concocted by mere mortal men (and women). My wife and I have been in and a part of many denominations over the past 5 decades. And all seem to echo the Roman Imperial take over in the 4th Century CE which the Church has never fully recovered from.

Briefly, Constantine (who died a sun worshiper) saw in outlaw Christianity a cohesiveness his crumbling empire sorely lacked. He may not have envisioned the way the Roman Empire itself morphed into a religion (that which outlasts kings and kingdoms, emperors and empires a religion specifically the Roman Catholic Empire), but Constantine saw it possessed what his empire lacked and desperately needed; cohesiveness. He and his mother set out to build a religion with a fervor most religionists possess regardless the trueness of their path. Despite these interferences many Christian doctrines found their way to the light of day since they were and are so biblical. But regarding Church structure and those sort of doctrines... well, the emphasis on extrabiblical writings and traditions (to the point of precedent over scripture) is indication itself as to the error of those doctrines.

For one thing, the Church was never meant to be set up as an us and them function (clergy / laity). For we are all priests before God (1 Peter 2:3-9 Revelation 1:6 / 5:10). We are not all pastors but we are all priests in our various ministries. And we are to congregate not cathedralize (which often passes off as the total fulfillment of our spiritual obligation and duty to Christ and just parking our pork in the pew is not the fulfillment of our ministries at all).

I agree with others here that Messianic Judaism comes the closest to the first century Church, but even it has the cathedralization taint here and there from the traditions of men which Jesus himself said nullifies the Word of God.

[JohnD]

What Denomination do you belong to?

Were you born into it or did you research and compair the differances then select the one which best suited you?

My main fellowship is a New Testement, Non Denominational congergation which is Pastered by a guy who graduated Vala Victorian in his class i'm proud to say.

I also attend a Sevent Day Adventist Church 'cause i call the sabbath a dellight. I'd join the SDA if not for the extra-biblical writtings of Ellen G. White. I like that they are so concerned about good health and wholeness of being. They're also the last of the Protestant denominations who remember who the Scarlet Woman is.

I also like this Messianic Jewish congregation cause nobody can expound the old and the new like a former Rabbi whos seen the light.

I note in John chapter 17 among the many theological gems there a prayer of the Messiah to the Father that there be unity in the body of believers A unity that he harped on in the text and compared to the unity in the Godhead itself. A unity the Church has not known for nearly 17 centuries. The reason we have so many denominations is not so much the proper fitting to an individual's own preferences or comfort, but because mere mortal men keep trying to reinvent the wheel... from all the other worldly manifestations depicting how mere mortal men have determined the Church of God should be. We have the blueprint in the Bible. But because people do not take the Bible to heart or do not believe it is the final court of arbitration which God set it up to be... then it's a matter of interpretation based on the opinions, experiences, and traditions concocted by mere mortal men (and women). My wife and I have been in and a part of many denominations over the past 5 decades. And all seem to echo the Roman Imperial take over in the 4th Century CE which the Church has never fully recovered from.

Briefly, Constantine (who died a sun worshiper) saw in outlaw Christianity a cohesiveness his crumbling empire sorely lacked. He may not have envisioned the way the Roman Empire itself morphed into a religion (that which outlasts kings and kingdoms, emperors and empires a religion specifically the Roman Catholic Empire), but Constantine saw it possessed what his empire lacked and desperately needed; cohesiveness. He and his mother set out to build a religion with a fervor most religionists possess regardless the trueness of their path. Despite these interferences many Christian doctrines found their way to the light of day since they were and are so biblical. But regarding Church structure and those sort of doctrines... well, the emphasis on extrabiblical writings and traditions (to the point of precedent over scripture) is indication itself as to the error of those doctrines.

For one thing, the Church was never meant to be set up as an us and them function (clergy / laity). For we are all priests before God (1 Peter 2:3-9 Revelation 1:6 / 5:10). We are not all pastors but we are all priests in our various ministries. And we are to congregate not cathedralize (which often passes off as the total fulfillment of our spiritual obligation and duty to Christ and just parking our pork in the pew is not the fulfillment of our ministries at all).

I agree with others here that Messianic Judaism comes the closest to the first century Church, but even it has the cathedralization taint here and there from the traditions of men which Jesus himself said nullifies the Word of God.

This is rubbish.

You know very little about the history of the Church.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10

16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20

21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3

15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2

15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

1 John 1

19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

1 John 4

6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

John 17

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

Not rubbish. Truth. Let's look at the record.

John 17 (KJV)

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

No recitation of apostolic authority (which died with the eyewitnesses of Jesus death and resurrection btw) and has since been placed in the scriptures themselves

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 (KJV)

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Psalm 138:2 (KJV)

2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

[enoob57]

What you seem to be missing in John 17 is that Jesus clearly separated the role of the leaders of the Church from those who will follow their message. We don't all have the same role in the body of Christ.

Jesus established a visible orgainzation with leadership, authority, and a commission.

My rubbish comment referred to your fictional history of the Church.

In common sense of things: I would say that the everlasting is the things of God and those being cherished by God. We may examine what The Lord Keeps as value and that which He does not as no value- correct? Religion is the lost seeking their way on their own strength... true and undefiled religion is established by Christ and in His Strength it is lived...

The first shall be last and the last first is not a metaphor but a blueprint of our LORD's intentions. In the beginning a garden and God set man in it, in His Image, to fellowship and form the Bride of His Son. As Revelation (The Kept) shows The Godhead is present, the Bride, a new heaven, new earth, on the new earth we see Jerusalem and a Throne of our LORD from which, flowing out of, a river and along it's banks tree's. As the nature of things no darkness ever again, nothing secrete, nothing hidden, open perfect unity... The Lord tells us it is so unique- that How stuff is created here- it is non relational to our minds for we have not seen it nor any other sensual perception has been involved in it's reality! I am of the wonder of it but also the rest in that He has said I cannot know! It is curious 6 days He created what men will struggle and fight for to keep to their last breath-> even defiled and in the shadows<- AND for 2000 plus years the Carpenter has been building, for His bride upon His Father's house, our dwelling for eternity!

In understanding the different an varied thought in religion is the confusion of that which is precious here that should not be precious mixed with precious that should... Hence the understanding-

Matt 13:24-30

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?' 29 But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

NKJV

This is the sight that can bring out from religion to Worship In Christ... "to give up what one cannot keep to gain what one cannot lose" Mr Elliot found this life and lived in it's light and now is with our LORD. What causes anger in me is that religion causes us to hold to what is passing away and reject what is promised so that we live for what is here and are formed by it and clearly against the teaching of this

1 John 2:15-17

15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world — the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life — is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

NKJV

John saw the Love of God living here in The Person of His Son and as you read His Witness, now formed into The Word God has taken as from His Own Mouth, Love NOT your bodies, this cosmos, or things in earth for they will not last! Fix all your substance of hope on The Christ the evidence of things not seen this the essence of faith in Him, His Word, His Eternity now ours in Him by The Blessed Father's Will!

1 Peter 1:18-21

18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

NKJV

I see my Lord Jesus the Christ living without things all of His Life and I see his disciples also the same "silver and gold have I none"... what of your life and the ones you follow? Love, Steven

[Guest]

Jesus started a Church, gave it leaders, and gave the leaders his authority. I don't see how anyone can miss these points in scripture.

Authority

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. Romans 15:13

And Hope

[Sian12]

I think Joe means that the Holy Spirit is the authority..

[Dragoon]

What Denomination do you belong to?

Were you born into it or did you research and compair the differances then select the one which best suited you?

My main fellowship is a New Testement, Non Denominational congergation which is Pastered by a guy who graduated Vala Victorian in his class i'm proud to say.

I also attend a Sevent Day Adventist Church 'cause i call the sabbath a dellight. I'd join the SDA if not for the extra-biblical writtings of Ellen G. White. I like that they are so concerned about good health and wholeness of being. They're also the last of the Protestant denominations who remember who the Scarlet Woman is.

I also like this Messianic Jewish congregation cause nobody can expound the old and the new like a former Rabbi whos seen the light.

I note in John chapter 17 among the many theological gems there a prayer of the Messiah to the Father that there be unity in the body of believers A unity that he harped on in the text and compared to the unity in the Godhead itself. A unity the Church has not known for nearly 17 centuries. The reason we have so many denominations is not so much the proper fitting to an individual's own preferences or comfort, but because mere mortal men keep trying to reinvent the wheel... from all the other worldly manifestations depicting how mere mortal men have determined the Church of God should be. We have the blueprint in the Bible. But because people do not take the Bible to heart or do not believe it is the final court of arbitration which God set it up to be... then it's a matter of interpretation based on the opinions, experiences, and traditions concocted by mere mortal men (and women). My wife and I have been in and a part of many denominations over the past 5 decades. And all seem to echo the Roman Imperial take over in the 4th Century CE which the Church has never fully recovered from.

Briefly, Constantine (who died a sun worshiper) saw in outlaw Christianity a cohesiveness his crumbling empire sorely lacked. He may not have envisioned the way the Roman Empire itself morphed into a religion (that which outlasts kings and kingdoms, emperors and empires a religion specifically the Roman Catholic Empire), but Constantine saw it possessed what his empire lacked and desperately needed; cohesiveness. He and his mother set out to build a religion with a fervor most religionists possess regardless the trueness of their path. Despite these interferences many Christian doctrines found their way to the light of day since they were and are so biblical. But regarding Church structure and those sort of doctrines... well, the emphasis on extrabiblical writings and traditions (to the point of precedent over scripture) is indication itself as to the error of those doctrines.

For one thing, the Church was never meant to be set up as an us and them function (clergy / laity). For we are all priests before God (1 Peter 2:3-9 Revelation 1:6 / 5:10). We are not all pastors but we are all priests in our various ministries. And we are to congregate not cathedralize (which often passes off as the total fulfillment of our spiritual obligation and duty to Christ and just parking our pork in the pew is not the fulfillment of our ministries at all).

I agree with others here that Messianic Judaism comes the closest to the first century Church, but even it has the cathedralization taint here and there from the traditions of men which Jesus himself said nullifies the Word of God.

This is rubbish.

You know very little about the history of the Church.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10

16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20

21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3

15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2

15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

1 John 1

19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

1 John 4

6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

John 17

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

Not rubbish. Truth. Let's look at the record.

John 17 (KJV)

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

No recitation of apostolic authority (which died with the eyewitnesses of Jesus death and resurrection btw) and has since been placed in the scriptures themselves

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 (KJV)

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Psalm 138:2 (KJV)

2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

What you seem to be missing in John 17 is that Jesus clearly separated the role of the leaders of the Church from those who will follow their message. We don't all have the same role in the body of Christ.

Jesus established a visible orgainzation with leadership, authority, and a commission.

My rubbish comment referred to your fictional history of the Church.

Hello again Chesterton,

I think you're confusing the 'church' with the Roman Catholic Church.

If you choose to confine yourself to its teachings, that is your choice and I pray that God guide you.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord and Him alone. When I look for the 'church', I'm looking for the body of Christ, and the strange thing is.... God is not limited by our conceptions of who He should use or who He will call to Himself.

It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. (Phil 1:15-18)

Instead of arguing about the 'church', perhaps it would be more beneficial to be preach Christ?