Is It Science?

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

It is not biblically valid nor scientifically vaild. Scientifically, you are talking about the floating mat theory.

Indeed, and curiously it isn't ridiculed when evolutionists propose that lizard populations reached certain islands floating on mats.

Seriously, do you guys even read the bible. The earth was covered with water. There was nothing for anything to swim to. Really, that's not hard to find in Genesis. See below.

Don, is it your assertion that if the earth was covered in water that buoyancy would cease?

Can you reference the book, chapter and verse in which it says that when the earth was covered in water that nothing was capable of floating?

That must be the part we don't know, right?

Do you know why I'm having trouble finding that passage? Because it doesn't exist.

Pretending someone doesn't know the Bible because of what isn't in it is pretty different from you thinking we should put God to the test, like I pointed out we're commanded not to do.

Contrary to what you seem to be trying to establish here, you aren't rubber and we're not glue. If you're going to use the 'I know you are but what am I' fallacy, can you please try to disguise it better? This is like grade school level rhetoric you're throwing here.

We don't mind exposing fallacious reasoning and failed rhetoric, but when you do such a poor job of it, it just isn't any challenge.

[Guest]

Another thing I do not understand is what kind of food the lions, tigers, polar bears, etc. ate during that year.

What They Ate

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:29-31

Before The WW Flood

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. Genesis 9:1-4

Is The Same Stuff They'll Eat

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. Isaiah 65-25

After Jesus Returns

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7

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Dear One, Are You Ready

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16

Love, Joe

[enoob57]

It seems that everything ate plants at the time "And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food."

Did it apply to dinosaurs, too? I cannot imagine a T-Rex eating plants. I could not find anything relating to

dinosaurs in the Bible. What I do not understand is:

1) Did they get extinct before the flood? In this case, there were carnivorous animals before the flood (e.g. T-Rex)

2) Did they get extinct during the flood? In this case, there were carnivorous animals before the flood (e.g. T-Rex)

3) Did they get extinct after the flood? In this case they must have been boarded on the ark, too.

wait lets see your having trouble imagining this, but accept a self existent universe while it screams I am running down???? unbelievable! Love Steven

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

It seems that everything ate plants at the time "And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food."

Did it apply to dinosaurs, too? I cannot imagine a T-Rex eating plants.

This has been exactly your problem from the beginning. Your test for truth is your imagination.

I couldn't imagine that a cat would eat frozen vegetables, until I saw my cat doing so.

I couldn't imagine that a Peacock Mantis Shrimp could shatter aquarium glass with a hydro-powered bio-hammer... but it can.

I couldn't imagine that a lion could run straight up a giraffe's neck and bite its jugular vain, until I watched it happen.

I couldn't imagine that a cell is the most sophisticated bio-chemical machine that operates with mobile proteins that accomplish mind-bogglingly complex tasks and assembling of bio-chemical parts, but they do.

I still can't imagine a 3,000,000,000 base pair sequencing in the human genome, but that's true too.

Imagination isn't an appropriate measure of truth.

I could not find anything relating to

dinosaurs in the Bible.

The descriptions of Behemoth and Leviathan in Job both sound a lot like dinosaurs.

Behemoth sounds like an sauropod, and Leviathan sounds much like what one might expect from aquatic reptiles like the Big Kahunasaurus (don't blame me for the name, I didn't name it).

The word Dinosaur was invented in the 1800's so there can be no reference to that word in a text that predates its inception. Before that all giant reptiles were referred to as dragons. There are multiple references to tannin in Hebrew, which is translated in various different ways but contextually could be translated as dragon.

What I do not understand is:

1) Did they get extinct before the flood?

No, “Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive” (Genesis 6:20).

In this case, there were carnivorous animals before the flood (e.g. T-Rex)

This is a false dichotomy, because remember, your premise for the truth of this assertions is predicated only on your imagination, in that you couldn’t imagine that it was they way the Bible says it was.

Everything ate plants, so this is false.

2) Did they get extinct during the flood?

No, that’s the point of the ark.

In this case, there were carnivorous animals before the flood (e.g. T-Rex)

Same faulty premise.

3) Did they get extinct after the flood?

Yes.

In this case they must have been boarded on the ark, too.

They were. Dinosaur eggs demonstrate that dinosaurs were born very small. Some modern reptiles never stop growing their whole lives if the conditions are conducive to continued physical growth. In restrictive environments, like terrariums, they only grow to the size that the environment can support.

In the Bible it says the people used to live a very long time. If this was also true of animals, it may account for how such small creatures could get so large in the wild, but having a couple T-Rex’s on board could just as well have only take up the space of a dog kennel.

[Don Fanucci]

How much terrestrial vegetation could survive underwater that was not freshwater and not seawater?

At least one olive tree must have survived according to scriptures:

Genesis 8:11

When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth.

Therefore your interpretation cannot be correct: God did not intend to kill everything

which was outside the ark.

In other words: either you accept Luftwaffe interpretation or you are saying that the Bible

is contradictory.

No, as I've said, I question the literal interpretation. Actually, its the claim that whoever is doing the interpreting is correct, and everyone else is wrong. You raise a great point about the olive branch. This would lead to my next question of, where did it come from. If water covered even the mountain tops (Gen 8:5 5The water decreased steadily until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains became visible. ), where did the olive tree grow? Under water? That's a pretty tough sell. On the top of a mountain, in such a short time? Just as hard. Its hard to envision God not wanting to kill everything if even the mountains were covered in water. Kind of doesn't help the regional flood argument either.

[Don Fanucci]

Wow, you *know* what creationists would and wouldn't do?! Gosh, that's amazing.

No, I know what scientists would do. Thanks for making my point.

How about Todd Wood's baraminology study of grasses? Will that do? Otherwise there are some published papers released by the Baraminology Study Group at the following address: http://www.creationbiology.org

Then there's Kurt Wise's baraminology applications to turtles in the 1990s

Ashley Robinson and David Cavanaugh's papers on baraminology in turtles, cats and primates.

Yeah, looked those up. One was a website. Another was a newsletter. Its clear you don't undertsand peer review, publication, and scientific literature. CReation literature is not science. Anything you publish in there must agree with creation, as they state. Its a rule of their publication. That's not science, its religion, as I've said countless times before.

LuftWaffle: Insects could survive floating on debris

Don Fanucci: Ha! You don't read the bible, because it says the earth was covered with water.

See, how your statement doesn't actually follow, rendering your charge of biblical illiteracy completely impotent.

Ah. I see, So anything that has no basis in science, but could be possible by some bizarre reason answers my question completely. Is that what you are saying?

The above is another feeble attempt, as demonstrated by the summary of salient points below:

Lufwaffle: Insects could survive floating on debris

Don Fanucci: The debris will rot in 10 months

Luftwaffle: That's pure speculation

Don Fanucci: How much terrestrial vegetation could survive underwater that was not freshwater and not seawater?

Round and round we go. Do you see why we think you're unreasonable? I'm saying that your claim that the debris would rot in ten months is pure speculation. Repeating that speculation in the form of a question doesn't make it any less speculative.

Ok, let me ask you to answer a question honestly. Do you think it is more likely that nothing would rot in water for ten months (actually I think it is longer, but didn't bother with the calculations), or less likely, given that terrestrial plants, which need to be in soil, all of the sudden now are found floating in water for ten months, with no nutrients, in an enviornment that is not their natural environment. Again, would the grass and trees in your yard survive underwater, or floating if uprooted?

Using that logic one must therefore conclude that ships, surfboards and flotsam actually fly. Or perhaps there's another option, floatation, such as what the insects possibly did atop debris during the Noahic flood.

When things float, they're not underwater and they're not flying either, weird huh?

I forgot that I had to review basic biology in all my responses. Ever take a shovel and turn over a spadeful of dirt? Did you see anything crawling around in it? If so, do you think is is there because that is its habitat, or is it there for some other reason.

You learnt that God was precise in his wording by forcing a face-value interpretive style on a single verse in order to disprove what God literally said? Okie dokie...

Actually, I'm not trying to disprove anything, those are your words. I'm just trying, through interrogation and Q&A to learn your reasoning. I presume you are tryingto do the same.

[Guest]

What Is Time

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31

To The LORD Of Time

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? Romans 3:3

But The LORD's Own Truth

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:4

Jesus Is LORD

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No, as I've said, I question the literal interpretation. Actually, its the claim that whoever is doing the interpreting is correct, and everyone else is wrong. You raise a great point about the olive branch. This would lead to my next question of, where did it come from. If water covered even the mountain tops (Genesis 8:5 5 The water decreased steadily until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains became visible. ), where did the olive tree grow? Under water? That's a pretty tough sell. On the top of a mountain, in such a short time? Just as hard. Its hard to envision God not wanting to kill everything if even the mountains were covered in water. Kind of doesn't help the regional flood argument either.

The Breath Of Truth

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16 (NIV 1984)

Blows Throughout The Word Of God

And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creeper upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. Genesis 7:21-23

And All Know

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 2 Peter 3:3-6

It

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20

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Believe

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:10-12

And Be Blessed Beloved

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:13

Be Very Blessed

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14

Love, Joe

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

[enoob57]

How much terrestrial vegetation could survive underwater that was not freshwater and not seawater?

At least one olive tree must have survived according to scriptures:

Genesis 8:11

When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth.

Therefore your interpretation cannot be correct: God did not intend to kill everything

which was outside the ark.

In other words: either you accept Luftwaffe interpretation or you are saying that the Bible

is contradictory.

No, as I've said, I question the literal interpretation. Actually, its the claim that whoever is doing the interpreting is correct, and everyone else is wrong. You raise a great point about the olive branch. This would lead to my next question of, where did it come from. If water covered even the mountain tops (Gen 8:5 5The water decreased steadily until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains became visible. ), where did the olive tree grow? Under water? That's a pretty tough sell. On the top of a mountain, in such a short time? Just as hard. Its hard to envision God not wanting to kill everything if even the mountains were covered in water. Kind of doesn't help the regional flood argument either.

the mystery lies within the seeds.... Love Steven

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

No, as I've said, I question the literal interpretation. Actually, its the claim that whoever is doing the interpreting is correct, and everyone else is wrong.

OK, so let's apply this reasoning consistently: Who's to say that Jesus really died on the cross? Isn't that just someone's interpretation?

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Yeah, looked those up. One was a website. Another was a newsletter. Its clear you don't undertsand peer review, publication, and scientific literature. CReation literature is not science. Anything you publish in there must agree with creation, as they state. Its a rule of their publication. That's not science, its religion, as I've said countless times before.

Don, by your own admission you discount creationism as un-scientific and therefore ruled out from consideration for publication as a methodological restriction, so it cuts both ways and therefore by your reasoniing nothing is science and it's all religion.

Is that a concession you'd like to make?