Why the Same-Sex Marriage Experiment Will Not Work

[~candice~]

Bob and Ted getting married dishonours the Lord and His ways and I cannot facilitate that. The consequences (and I claim it does affect me) are not the primary issue. Christians cannot condone actions He calls sin.

Bob and Ted do not care about what your god thinks. Does this make them fair game for you to attempt to deny them the right to get married? Atheist heterosexual couples do not care what your god thinks. Does this make them fair game for you to attempt to deny them the right to get married? Christians sin all the time. Does this make them fair game for you to attempt to deny them the right to get married?

I'm not feeling fantastic today so I'll address this point now and the rest can wait til some other time. I believe with every fibre in my body that God is real and the bible is His Word. I need to live that in every facet of my life. That includes politics. It means I believe homosexuality is a sin, and the consequence of that sin is death. It means I believe marriage is between a man and a woman and marriages that are outside of this are not recognised by our Lord. Given the dire consequence for sin, why would I support or facilitate a person to engage in sin (gay marriage) knowing it will send them to hell? I cannot.

So yes, I deny rights. I deny gays the right to marry, because I believe it is in their best interest and upholds the standard of the Lord. It would be rather contradictory of me not to have this stance.

This doesn't negate grace and compassion, and I do have a lot of compassion for those trapped in homosexual relationships. But compassion and truth can stand side by side and are not in competition with one another. Truth remains truth regardless of what opinion Bob and Ted hold.

I don't let my child do whatever she likes, I often enforce rules on her behavior that she doesn't understand, but I do. Because I know the consequence of her behavior and she doesn't. I don't let her play with knives even though she demands the right to do what mummy can do. It's not discrimination, just love.

[Guest]

Romans 14:10

You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister ? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

My view on gay realtionships is that as a church we don't not follow every word in the bible, that we are not to judge people, it is not our job. God is the only true judge.As a people we have to do our best to live christian lives and share the love of God. We do not know what GOd thinks abotu Gay marraige, therefore I say let us let the true judge do the judging. We should be showing them love and kindness and compassion and forgiveness, so that they too might come to know the Lord.

Welcome to Worthy.

Why do you say that we don't know what God thinks about gay marriage? God has told us what He thinks in His Word and that hasn't changed.

As for not following the whole bible, I would disagree. We follow it as much as we are asked to, but there is much in the OT that was given only to Israel under the theocratic reign, and never to us.

God bless

Probably also the prohibition of same-sex relationship was given only to Israel under theocratic reign. How can we say? I could not find nothing in the Bible that says: this is valid only for my theocratic reign and this is valid for all. In other words: what makes you think that:

- Stoning of people who don't keep the Sabbath is valid only for that theocratic reign

- The fact that gays are an abomination is valid for everybody

You are cherry picking here, and applying your own ethics (that do not require any Bible) to decide what is still valid and what not.

[Guest]

Serious Stuff

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:47-48

Sin

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:13-17

____________

Probably also the prohibition of same-sex relationship was given only to Israel under theocratic reign. How can we say? I could not find nothing in the Bible that says: this is valid only for my theocratic reign and this is valid for all. In other words: what makes you think that:

- Stoning of people who don't keep the Sabbath is valid only for that theocratic reign

- The fact that gays are an abomination is valid for everybody

You are cherry picking here, and applying your own ethics (that do not require any Bible) to decide what is still valid and what not.

Dear One Biblically, Sin

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Romans 1:20-23

Is A Curse

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Romans 1:24-28

That Keeps On Cursing

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Romans 1:29-31

You See

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Romans 1:32

____________

Believe

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

And Be Blessed Beloved

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Revelation 22:14-15

Be Very Blessed

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

Love, Joe

[UndecidedFrog]

DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. My opinions are my own. You do not have to accept them if you dislike them.

Dear ~candice~,

Thank you for your response.

I'm not feeling fantastic today so I'll address this point now and the rest can wait til some other time. I believe with every fibre in my body that God is real and the bible is His Word. I need to live that in every facet of my life. That includes politics. It means I believe homosexuality is a sin, and the consequence of that sin is death. It means I believe marriage is between a man and a woman and marriages that are outside of this are not recognised by our Lord. Given the dire consequence for sin, why would I support or facilitate a person to engage in sin (gay marriage) knowing it will send them to hell? I cannot.

Sorry you are not feeling well. I hope you get some rest and return your usual chipper self.

I have no doubt you believe your god to be real and the bible to be his word. Sorry if you interpreted anything I said to be remotely that I had doubts about your beliefs. You are entitled to your beleifs and your opinions, as I am to mine.

My point, in my previous posts to you, was to highlight how beliefs such as yours could result in abuse as they have in the past, and probably will again in the present and the future. If I have been unsuccessful in getting that point across, it is my bad.

Regards,

UF

[~candice~]

Hi Folks,

I'm somewhat back in the land of the living. I understand that imposing Christian rules / morality on a secular government is not popular but I believe it must be so. If you truly did believe that the Lord had revealed to us the proper way to live, you would do so also.

But we don't legislate against ALL immorality... we don't make greed illegal, we don't make lust illegal, or overeating. There is a balance and people debate where the line in the sand should be drawn, and usually it is determined on the basis of harm to society. I believe homosexual marriages are detrimental to the effect where they should remain illegal. That's what the OP is about - it's not just a religious conviction, there are also secular reasons why gay marriage is detrimental.

What you would be asking me to do, by repealing gay marriage laws, is intentionally facilitate someone to sin and hence find themselves condemned by the Lord. I really don't think you understand why I can't do that.

And as for this:

That said, making a law banning X doesn't save anyone from that sin, especially when you're talking about sexual orientation. So what does it really accomplish in the salvation of another? Instead of making laws wouldn't it be more prudent, if such is really an issue with you, to preach in various ways to homosexuals about their sinful lifestyles? Change the heart change the action, ban the action repel the heart.

that's a false dichotomy. I do preach in various ways to homosexuals. With my actions, my words, MY VOTE, my prayers, and with my whole life I (hope I) send a message that is both truthful and compassionate. That their actions are sinful but the Lord has paved a way for grace and forgiveness. I've personally seen two homosexuals repent and turn to the Lord. One is now married.

How can we change the heart by making it easier, more socially acceptable, and legal, to engage in sin? It's like telling my daughter not to play with knives and then removing the child lock from the knife draw... and letting her watch me do it.

[~candice~]

D-9, I'm not American. I'm also not Anti-American. I am Australian and I don't have your constitution.

[~candice~]

D-9, I'm not American. I'm also not Anti-American. I am Australian and I don't have your constitution.

Hmm, I see. I happened to look up the Australian Constitution. It turns out that chapter V section 116 is commonly coined as the "freedom of religion" act which is based on the American first amendment, but weaker in operation (according to Wiki). Section 116 states in total: The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth. Source: www.aph.gov.au

So it looks like the Commonwealth is more or less in the same position as the American government, but the States are more free to impose religious laws to its jurisdiction.

I am curious though if you are for a law against gay sex, which I think would make sense given your reason for banning gay marriage is to save people from gay sins?

Uh, it's not really based on the American constitution. We also do not have an enumerated Bill of Rights. Our rights are implicit and only become explicit via rulings through the High Court.

As for gay sex... same deal. I cannot personally condone or facilitate people to engage in gay sex. I just can't do it, no matter how much people throw the "constitution" at me, etc etc. I believe it is a sin resulting in death. I also understand that my view is not popular enough to become law in Australia, so there is no real risk of voting my way. It's not going to be illegal. But I can still make my moral stand.

Have you read my testimony? I'm not just some extreme fundie homophobe. I have personal experience in this area and I want gay people to come to saving knowledge of Christ. Some things are more important than "personal rights".

[~candice~]

By preaching and praying that the holy spirit will move those in sin to repent. We aren't talking about children (I do get the analogy), but adults who are fully capable of making their own decisions. Did not God give Adam, and via extension all of humanity, the choice of obeying God's commandment(s) or die in sin?

God also gave Israel a law which prohibited homosexual acts . Do you not see that?

By the way, policy is not the ONLY way in which we can address this sin resulting in death. I understand that the only effective measure is going to be salvation and the power of the Holy Spirit, BUT in order to do this we have to send a message via ALL avenues possible, not just from the pulpit, but from policy too.

[~candice~]

So where are you going to draw the line, D9? And I don't mean to resort to the absurd, but the extremes really do help to define the problem. Would you be willing to let people choose to have sex with animals and children?

I'm sorry, I know this is now OT since we were discussing secular reasons for opposing gay marriage, start another thread if you really wish.

[Guest shiloh357]

As for religious institutions getting lawsuits, I disagree. As religious institutions they can refuse marriage of people they so choose.

Not if you are going to argue that marriage is a "right." If marriage is a "right," then a church would not be legally able to refuse to marry a gay couple. The church would be violating their right to be married and that reveals the inherent flaw in your premise.

Marriage, even for heterosexuals, is not a right. Rights are guaranteed by law. The right to free speech, the right to choose and observe your religion, the right to speak out against the government without fear of reprisal, and so forth are rights we as Americans have and they are guaranteed to us by law and by our Constitution. Marriage is not a right. It is a consentual, mutual covenant between a man and a woman.

Passing laws against self-destructive behavior, llike homosexuality, beastiality, incest and every other sexual perversion does not impose one morality over another. It prevents immoral people from imposing their immorality on greater society. Even now homosexuals are not satisfied with keeping their junk withinn the privacy of their own home. They seek special "rights" and even minority status. They want to force the rest of us to accept their perversion as normal and healthy.